7 replies to this topic

[allie]

It didn't came as a suprise that Qing was defeated in the second opium war.

They were fighting against the taiping rebels and was in no position to fight against Britain and France.

General Sengge Rinchen leading the Qing army was a medicore general. He couldn't even defeat the taiping rebells much less the foreigners who had more advanced weapons.

Suppose there was no taiping rebellion going on and it was a much better general such as Zeng Guofan or Zuo Zongtang leading the Qing army against the western power. Suppose they could concentrate all their forces to fight against the western power as there were no taiping rebellion going on at the same time.

What do you think are their chances of defeating the western power?

[changsham]

Hi allie, this is just another "what if" to the endless millitary failures, rebellions and misfortunes suffered by the Qing in the 19th century. Not only had they to deal with the more advanced foreigners and the Taiping's at this time but also other fermenting and active rebellions like the Nien, Du Wenxi and Dungen rebellions. To maintain power the Qing engaged in wholesale butchery killing tens and tens of millions of Chinese. They were good bullies fighting against peasants with sticks but not the western powers with their superior weapons and tactics. It is not surprising the British received logistical help fom local Han Chinese on their march to Beijing after they reduced the Taku forces to rubble with their modest fleet. The chances of the Qing, already in advanced terminal decline to defeat the western powers in the 19th century? Absolutely none.

Edited by changsham, 11 July 2009 - 08:09 AM.

[Meiguo Laowai]

"What do you think are their chances of defeating the western power?"

Chinese forces under Prince Seng did defeat the Western powers, the year before in 1859, at the Dagu forts. Not utterly, of course, because the British and French came back the next year with Armstrong rifled artillery and marched through the Manchu cavalry all the way to Beijing - but the battle in 1859 was a victory nonetheless. It seems generally thought that British Admiral Hope and the other Western commanders sorely underestimated the capabilities of the Chinese defending the entrance to the Baihe (Peiho) River.

BTW, I just stumbled on a Chinese film about the Burning of the Summer Palace on YouTube. Has anyone seen this film and have an opinion about its accuracy?

[AjaxMinoan]

The first time I read about the Opium Wars I was very shocked. In US history, Chinese immigrants first brought Opium to the US. I had no idea that the British Empire waged a war to force the opium trade on China at a time when the Chinese had decided they wanted drive it out of their country. It's something that sticks in the Chinese people's memory I seems, but it's justified.
I remember once seeing a Chinese film where Westerners were bringing in Opium and corrupting the people, and was annoyed because of what I know about US history. Then I looked into the truth of what happened in the Opium Wars. I discovered that my perception on something can be as wrong as anybody else's.

Edited by AjaxMinoan, 14 August 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[adilima]

The first time I read about the Opium Wars I was very shocked. In US history, Chinese immigrants first brought Opium to the US. I had no idea that the British Empire waged a war to force the opium trade on China at a time when the Chinese had decided they wanted drive it out of their country. It's something that sticks in the Chinese people's memory I seems, but it's justified.
I remember once seeing a Chinese film where Westerners were bringing in Opium and corrupting the people, and was annoyed because of what I know about US history. Then I looked into the truth of what happened in the Opium Wars. I discovered that my perception on something can be as wrong as anybody else's.

Although I am Chinese, but I am also Indonesian, fortunately for me that my late father used to teach me Chinese history, but I've never know the details about Opium War I, because he always emphasized on older parts of Chinese history (maybe Song or Ming dynasty).

Can you please give me some reference on what you read?
Thanks.

[Meiguo Laowai]

General accounts of the Opium Wars

• Rennie, D, The British Arms in North China and Japan, London, John Murray, 1864.
  
• Olyphant, Lawrence, Narrative of the Earl of Elgin's Mission to China and Japan in the Years 1857, 1858 and 1859, Wm Blackwood and Sons, London, 1859.
  
• Collis, Maurice, Foreign Mud, Faber & Faber, London, 1946
  
• Fay, Peter, The Opium War 1840-42, W. W. Norton, 1975
  
• http://en.wikipedia....econd_Opium_War
  
• G. F. Bartle, Sir John Bowring and the Arrow war in China, Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, Manchester, 43:2 (1961), 293–316
  
• W. Travis Hanes III and Frank Sanello, The Opium Wars, 2002, ISBN 0-7607-7638-5
  
• J. Y. Wong, Deadly Dreams: Opium, Imperialism, and the Arrow War (1856–1860) in China, (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press) 1998.
  
• Cambridge History of China, Volume 10
  
• Online Cambridge History of China: Chapter 5: The creation of the treaty system, http://histories.cam...80521214476A006
  
• 第二次鸦片战争_百度百科 http://baike.baidu.c....htm#sub7618230
  
• 第二次鸦片战争 http://zh.wikipedia.....ilde;争

• Western accounts of the 1860 campaign (many digitized by Google Books)

• Allgood, George, The China War 1860, Longmans Green, New York, 1901.
  
• Knollys, Henry, Incidents in the China War of 1860, Wm Lockwood, London, 1875.
  
• O. Bonner-Smith, E. W. R. Lumby, The Second China War: 1856-60, Navy Record Society, London, 1954.
  
• Swinhoe, R, Narrative of the North China Campaign, Smith, Elder & Co., London, 1861.
  
• Wolseley, G, Narrative of the War with China in 1860, Scholarly Resources, Wilmington, DE - 1972, 1862.
  
• Erik Ringmar, Fury of the Europeans: Liberal Barbarism and the Destruction of the Emperor's Summer Palace

[AjaxMinoan]

Although I am Chinese, but I am also Indonesian, fortunately for me that my late father used to teach me Chinese history, but I've never know the details about Opium War I, because he always emphasized on older parts of Chinese history (maybe Song or Ming dynasty).

Can you please give me some reference on what you read?
Thanks.

Right now I'm reading Peter Heather's Fall of the Roman Empire, but it's taking me awhile. I read the BBC every day, and yes I'll admit to reading Wikipedia articles. I think Wikipedia is a pretty good source, though people make fun of it. When I start another book, I'm sort of interested in reading about Kublai Khan,

I'm more of an expert on Roman history. Chinese history is a huge subject, and covers a lot of area. I did once read a list of Chinese emperors from Qin Shi Huang, the first to rule a united China, to the last one in the 20th century. It's a daunting list.

I have a fascination with the history of the city of Singapore too. I like how Chinese, Indians, Arabs and others end up in this city that eventually becomes this global hub of trade.

Edited by AjaxMinoan, 15 August 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Danny.T]

General Sengge Rinchen

I think the Mongolian General Sengge Rinchen was not incompetent ; he stopped the Tai Ping Rebellion's north expedition; he confronted with the Nien rebellion which led to his death. He was the last Banner warrior that the Qing court could rely on to lead the Mongolian cavalry.He fought a decisive cavalry battle against the western allied troops in Baliqiu ( 八里橋 ) in 1860. Although the battle was a fatal defeat due to the out-dated weaponry compared to western firearms and cannons, the steadfastly resisting spirit of the Mongolian / Manchu cavalry was considered Chinese heroic bravery to be respected even by their enemies.

Edited by Danny.T, 30 August 2012 - 12:17 AM.