23 replies to this topic

[shawn]

How did the British manage to smuggle opium into China during Jiaqing's reign? Also, how come the national treasury became empty during Jiaqing's reign? If Jiaqing had stopped opium from coming into China and also modernised China in science, technology and military when the West was going through civil wars and empire breakaways, would Qing dynasty have lasted longer? Also, how could Jiaqing restore the national treasury to be full?

[changsham]

Jiaqing was incompetant like his father in his dotage. Like father like son. Pomp and ceremony is all he understood. The Mandate of Heaven he wore like a gifted badge but he never understood how to apply it. Slippery silver tongued advisors always pissing in his ear. The problem with 3rd/ 4th and further generation Emperor's is how can they run a country when they don't even know how to wipe their own bum!

Edited by changsham, 12 July 2009 - 09:20 AM.

[allie]

Hmm. Jiaqing tried to solve the corruption problem but failed.

Wonder why is that so..

Anyway Qianlong was a competant Emperor just that he become muddle headed when he was old

[shawn]

Okay, but how could Jiaqing had stopped opium from being smuggled into China?

[allie]

Okay, but how could Jiaqing had stopped opium from being smuggled into China?

Ask Jiaqing himself

[brightness]

Okay, but how could Jiaqing had stopped opium from being smuggled into China?

By legalizing it. Eventually, opium was legalized after the 2nd Opium War, and the domestic production subsequently took off. By the end of the 19th century, not only was China no longer an opium importer, it became one of the world's top opium exporters.

[allie]

By legalizing it. Eventually, opium was legalized after the 2nd Opium War, and the domestic production subsequently took off. By the end of the 19th century, not only was China no longer an opium importer, it became one of the world's top opium exporters.

Legalise it and make the country go bankrupt and everybody addicated to it?

Soliders everyday smoking opium and can't even fight a decent war? Politicians everyday smoking opium and can't be bothered about the country?

[brightness]

Legalise it and make the country go bankrupt and everybody addicated to it?

The country was expericing a monetary contraction (going bankrupt) due to the out flow of silver, a result of the opium ban. After legalization, silver flowed back, and Chinese economy boomed in the last third of the 19th century, despite official corruptions and other issues. There was a 35 year period between 2nd Opium War and First Sino-Japanese War. It looked as if the Qing dynasty was coming back from the brink after the legalization of opium. Many industrial development proejcts were underway (their being managed by government officials, and therefore inevitably become mismanaged in a couple decades, was a different issue). If you are nationalisticly minded, the Qing army defeated French army on land in northern Vietnam; was building the largest navy in Asia by the 1880's; General Zuo Zongtang also annexed XingJiang and made Qing the largest territorial empire ever in Chinese history! Yes, think about that, all that happening after the Opium War, not too bad at all for a century of supposed humiliation . . . after the 2nd Opium War to be exact, when opium was finally legalized, produced in China and exported from China, for cold hard cash to pay for all the developments and building. Opium price in China probably plumetted, and the people probably no longer had to lose their family fortunes to pay for what was essentially a recreational preference.

Soliders everyday smoking opium and can't even fight a decent war? Politicians everyday smoking opium and can't be bothered about the country?

You may want to read up on the real clinical effect of opioids, instead of relying entirely on anti-drug propaganda. Everyone has his or her own "satiation level" for opioids. You just have to find the ones who can function to be your soldiers and officials. Similar dire platitudes are used in countries that ban alcohols (like most Islamic countries, and the US too for a decade or so in the early 20th century). Somehow our non-prohibition societies are functioning fine despite many alcoholics among us . . . some of them are even soldiers and politicians. Yes, there are alcoholics who are so addicted that they can not fucntion; instead of banning alcohol, simply avoiding hiring such non-functional persons seems to have worked out much more efficiently than battling the underground economy all the time.

[allie]

Somehow our non-prohibition societies are functioning fine despite many alcoholics among us . . . some of them are even soldiers and politicians. Yes, there are alcoholics who are so addicted that they can not fucntion; instead of banning alcohol, simply avoiding hiring such non-functional persons seems to have worked out much more efficiently than battling the underground economy all the time.

Alcoholics and drug addicts are totally different. And how are you going to avoid hiring such non-functional persons? They won't be writting on their forehead that they are alcoholics so please don't employ me.

Not to forget that the Qing has such a hugh population and corruption makes it even harder for them to do so.

Also, there were many soliders who were fine when they join the army. After that they got addicted to opium and secretly took it. When they have run out of money to buy opium, they resort to corruption or stealing millitary weapons to sell them illegially for money.

Worst still, many of them are high ranking army officers who are opium addicits.

Edited by allie, 13 July 2009 - 11:53 PM.

[allie]

The country was expericing a monetary contraction (going bankrupt) due to the out flow of silver, a result of the opium ban. After legalization, silver flowed back, and Chinese economy boomed in the last third of the 19th century, despite official corruptions and other issues. There was a 35 year period between 2nd Opium War and First Sino-Japanese War. It looked as if the Qing dynasty was coming back from the brink after the legalization of opium. Many industrial development proejcts were underway (their being managed by government officials, and therefore inevitably become mismanaged in a couple decades, was a different issue). If you are nationalisticly minded, the Qing army defeated French army on land in northern Vietnam; was building the largest navy in Asia by the 1880's; General Zuo Zongtang also annexed XingJiang and made Qing the largest territorial empire ever in Chinese history! Yes, think about that, all that happening after the Opium War, not too bad at all for a century of supposed humiliation . . . after the 2nd Opium War to be exact, when opium was finally legalized, produced in China and exported from China, for cold hard cash to pay for all the developments and building. Opium price in China probably plumetted, and the people probably no longer had to lose their family fortunes to pay for what was essentially a recreational preference.

Do you have any evidence to prove that the economy of china was booming at that time?

[brightness]

Alcoholics and drug addicts are totally different. And how are you going to avoid hiring such non-functional persons? They won't be writting on their forehead that they are alcoholics so please don't employ me.

Well, you answered your own question. How does the civil service in the modern world work in a typical modern society where alcohol is legal?
As for the difference between alcoholics vs. drug addics, well, which of the two is illegal is entirely arbitrary. Some countries in the world outlaws alcohol while some drugs are legal, and others outlaw some drugs while alcohol is legal. There is no real rationale why one is legal while the other is not; prohibitting all of them usually led to the downfall of the regime rather quickly.

Not to forget that the Qing has such a hugh population and corruption makes it even harder for them to do so.

Precisely the reason why prohibition would never work.

Also, there were many soliders who were fine when they join the army. After that they got addicted to opium and secretly took it. When they have run out of money to buy opium, they resort to corruption or stealing millitary weapons to sell them illegially for money.

You are describing the exact situation where opium was illegal. Remember, banning something is not the same thing as makit it disappear. If only world were that simple, Obama's healthcare policy could consist of a sigle sentence: ban on all diseases. LOL. The real result of banning drugs is making drugs more expensive and giving outlaws a highly profitable industry to monopolize (government police and army effectively become the enforcers of the drug monopoly). When opium became legal, the soldier wouldn't have to take it secretly; and it would be so cheap that the soldier wouldn't run out of money buying it before hitting his own satiating point. No need to steal or sell weapon at all. How many soldiers steal and sell weapons to buy legal cigarette or legal alcohol? Almost none.

Worst still, many of them are high ranking army officers who are opium addicits.

And many of them are alcoholics, chain smokers and/or sex addicts too. So long as they could carry on their duties, their addiction would be their own business. Having a legal prohibition actually make the official liable to being blackmailed. If the person's satiating point for opioid is so high that he would be incapacitated before satiated, then he would have to be relieved of duty; analogous to heavy drinkers.

[brightness]

Do you have any evidence to prove that the economy of china was booming at that time?

Please read the following two chapters:

http://www.ac.wwu.ed...n/H371/re35.pdf
http://www.ac.wwu.ed...n/H371/re36.pdf

You can also infer the massive economic growth from the rapid modernization of the army and navy as well as the building of modern factories in China. Another indicator of the massive economic growth in those 30+ years was the size of idemnities: The British and French army, even after occupying Beijing, only received 16 million taels of silver in the Peking Convention at the end of the 2nd Opium War. Whereas Japan, not even coming close to capturing the capital, extracted 200 million taels of silver in the Treaty of Shimonoseki. That drastic difference indicates a massive increase in Qing's wealth in those 30+ years.

[allie]

You are describing the exact situation where opium was illegal. Remember, banning something is not the same thing as makit it disappear. If only world were that simple, Obama's healthcare policy could consist of a sigle sentence: ban on all diseases. LOL. The real result of banning drugs is making drugs more expensive and giving outlaws a highly profitable industry to monopolize (government police and army effectively become the enforcers of the drug monopoly). When opium became legal, the soldier wouldn't have to take it secretly; and it would be so cheap that the soldier wouldn't run out of money buying it before hitting his own satiating point. No need to steal or sell weapon at all. How many soldiers steal and sell weapons to buy legal cigarette or legal alcohol? Almost none.

even if you make opium legal, when the soliders do not have enough money to buy it, wouldn't they resort to stealing, corruption, selling illegial military weapons etc to finance their drug addiction too?

moreover, qing soliders salary is so low at that time. Not surprising that they will have to resort to doing illegial thinsg to finance their statisfaction?

[allie]

And many of them are alcoholics, chain smokers and/or sex addicts too. So long as they could carry on their duties, their addiction would be their own business. Having a legal prohibition actually make the official liable to being blackmailed. If the person's satiating point for opioid is so high that he would be incapacitated before satiated, then he would have to be relieved of duty; analogous to heavy drinkers.

The problem is that most of the Qing soliders are opium addicts and it affects their combat ability. The moment they do not take opium, they suffer side effects and they can't even behave properly let alone fight a war.

Imagine such a situation they will have to carry opium along with them when they are going for wars so that they can take it to satisfy their cravings.

Do you think such an army can fight properly in a war? and what if opium runs out than the soliders can't even fight already

[allie]

Well, you answered your own question. How does the civil service in the modern world work in a typical modern society where alcohol is legal?
As for the difference between alcoholics vs. drug addics, well, which of the two is illegal is entirely arbitrary. Some countries in the world outlaws alcohol while some drugs are legal, and others outlaw some drugs while alcohol is legal. There is no real rationale why one is legal while the other is not; prohibitting all of them usually led to the downfall of the regime rather quickly.

Alcoholics can restrict themself to drinking only after their office hours.

But drug addicts cannot. They have to take the drugs once the craving comes and they can't wait until after their working hours to take it.

When a smoker's craving comes and he smokes, the craving is statisfied and he becomes a normal person again and in fact even more energitic so he can continue to smoke even when he is working.

When a drug addicit cravings come and he takes drugs, he than goes into a daze and he doesn't even know what he is doing much less being able to continue to do his job.

Just take a look at the social problems that opium caused to china