26 replies to this topic

[galvatron prime]

I have a question ,could Spain conquer China during Genghis Khan ,Yuan dynasty and early Ming dynasty era since Spain mission was discover and conquer China and Asian ,am i right ?

What if Spain really reach China in 1200-1500an and not America continent ?
Can the Spanish army and Armada manage to beat Genghis Khan army ,Yuan dynasty army and Ming dynasty army in 1200-1500 an like Spanish colonization of the Americas continent in Mexico and Peru ,defeating the American natives ?

Thanks .

[General_Zhaoyun]

Actually, Spain hadn't unified in 1200s. The southern part of Spain was ruled by Muslim moors and Spain only managed to conquer the Moors in 1400s. They also did not possess the naval capability to reach China as there was not yet a 'world map' to reach China.

[YuenKamSiu]

My guess is probably not, although Spain would have been a formidable foe against anyone at the time.

[WangGeon]

I have a question ,could Spain conquer China during Genghis Khan ,Yuan dynasty and early Ming dynasty era since Spain mission was discover and conquer China and Asian ,am i right ?

What if Spain really reach China in 1200-1500an and not America continent ?
Can the Spanish army and Armada manage to beat Genghis Khan army ,Yuan dynasty army and Ming dynasty army in 1200-1500 an like Spanish colonization of the Americas continent in Mexico and Peru ,defeating the American natives ?

Thanks .

I don't think it'd be possible. The Yuan Dynasty, especially in the 13th century was pretty formidable.

Spain, as GZ mentioned, was not yet a single entity at the time. The Spanish were able to overcome the Aztecs and Incas because both the Aztecs and Incas were already in pretty bad shape. The Spanish didn't really conquer Mexico in the beginning; the Mexicans did. Cortez's use of the Tlaxcalans' grudge against the Aztec Empire (as well as the armies of the Tlaxacalans and armies of other indigenous enemies of the Aztecs) proved to be instrumental in the fall of Tenochtitlan. The Incas were reeling from internal disputes by the time Francisco Pizarro came. In contrast to the situation in the Americas, East Asia in the period you mentioned was quite strong. East Asians also were already in contact with European diseases unlike indigenous Americans.

[calvo]

Speaking from a Spanish point of view, I'd say definitely not. Neither in 1200, 1500, 1800, or 2000.

In 1200 Spain did not even exist as a country, as other forunmers have mentioned. At that time, Chinese military technology and politcal administration was probably stronger than most European nations anyway.
In 1500, Spain did indeed conquer most of America, but the conquest was largely assisted by the lack of unity among the American natives, the technological backwardness (lack of horses, steel), and most important of all: the lack of inmunity to the diseases.
If it wasn't for the Smallpox outbreaks that decimated the Aztec population during the siege of Tenochitlan, which in turn wiped out more than half of the Inca population prior to the Spanish contact with them (the disease raced ahead of the colonists), it would have been difficult to conquer these 2 empires.
The Chinese, like all Eurasians, shared the same inmune system to diseases. They had guns, germs, and steel, and a population several times larger than the Spanish. It would've been a tough job to conquer them. The Chinese had defeated Dutch, Portuguese, and Russian armies as late as 1687. It could therefore be assumed that they'd also be perfectly capable of winning a war against the Spanish.

Even in the 20th century, when China was plagued with civil war an internal strife; the Japanese tried to conquer them but still failed by the sheer size of the territory.

[Taran ap Dafydd]

No.

Spain's conquering of the America's, the same as everyone else's, was accomplished primarily by 2 things:
First, plague. There were many disease (net necessarily THE plague), brought to the Americas by European explorers that the aborigines had never encountered. Such would not have been the case with China. They had already had extensive trade contact between them.

2nd, local allies. The Americas were broken down into dozens, or even hundreds of different factions; even within a given nation. The vast majority of the conquering armies consisted of locals. Where in China would the conquistadors get their local allies in such numbers?

And, finally, The Spanish weren't conquering America, or trying to reach China directly in the 1200s. They were a little busy with more local concerns. You're off by about 300 years. Remember the school chant:
"In fourteen hundred and ninety-two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue..."

[brightness]

I have a question ,could Spain conquer China during Genghis Khan ,Yuan dynasty and early Ming dynasty era since Spain mission was discover and conquer China and Asian ,am i right ?

What if Spain really reach China in 1200-1500an and not America continent ?
Can the Spanish army and Armada manage to beat Genghis Khan army ,Yuan dynasty army and Ming dynasty army in 1200-1500 an like Spanish colonization of the Americas continent in Mexico and Peru ,defeating the American natives ?

Thanks .

Early sailing fleets across long distances had very few ships. Columbus' original fleet of discovery only had 3 ships. If "Chinese" and "Spaniards" were to meet in a major battle at the time of Yuan, the most likely scenario would have been if the Memluks failed to stop the the Mongol army in Palestine. Then Hulagu's Il-Khanate may well have "uncorked" Egypt, and pushed all the way along the North Africaa coast, just like the Muslim empire did a few hundred years earlier, eventually crossing the Straight of Gibralta, landing on the Iberian Peninsula, at a time when "Spain" did not yet exist as we understand it as a post-"reconquest" Christian kingdom. If that were to have happened, it's highly doubtful the Frankish knights could pull off another Battle of Tours, against Mongols this time instead of against Muslims. Mongols put much more emphasis on scouting and their weapon of choice was a projectile weapon.

[haidao]

The other posters are correct. Spain could not conquer China. They could not even conquer Formosa (Taiwan) from the Netherlands in the 17 century. Here is a list of Spains expeditions in Asia. It should be noted that many Filipinos were used has soldiers in these expeditions.

1) The invasion of Borneo in 1578 by Governor Francisco Sande (1575-1580) involving an expedition of 40 ships, 1500 Filipinos and several hundred Spaniards, and continued by his successor, Governor Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalose (1580-1583) mainly to prop up to tottering regime of Sultan Sirela, twice disposed by his usurper brother.

2) Spanish expeditions in 1582 and 1585 to the Portuguese-controlled Moluccas, this time involving three large ships and numerous smaller craft, 300 Spaniards, and 1500 Filipinos.

3) Then anti-Dutch and anti-British expedition to the Moluccas under Governor Perez Dasmarinas (1590-1593) and his son Luis Dasmariñas, involving 100 vessels, 1,000 Spaniards, and 400 Manila harquebusiers, 800 Bisayans, 400 Chinese rowers which ended in a dismal failure because of Chinese mutiny and massacre of the Spaniards, including Governor Dasmariñas.

4) The series of Spanish expeditions to Cambodia lasting seven years, 1596-1603, which ended in another failure.

5) Spanish war with Siam in 1624 because the latter had signed a treaty of alliance with the Dutch, Spain’s mortal enemy.

6) A Spanish-Filipino expedition to French Indo-China in 1857-1861, involving 1,500 men to help France, a Spanish ally, in the conquest of the country and to avenge the murder by the natives of a Spanish missionary, Bishop Diaz.

Needless to say, these wars waged by Spain took a great toll of Filipinos recruited in the service of the Spanish king,

So if they did badly in these nations chances are the same thing would have happened against China.

@Calvo - You mention the Incas and Aztecs. The so called "civilized natives" of the Americas. And you wrote

In 1500, Spain did indeed conquer most of America, but the conquest was largely assisted by the lack of unity among the American natives, the technological backwardness (lack of horses, steel), and most important of all: the lack of inmunity to the diseases.

The Spaniards might have done quite well against these "civilized natives" but when it came to some more primitive natives they actually lost.

Mapuche, Yaquis and Jivaro natives would be an example.

This on the Jivaros which explains why the Spaniards learned to avoid them: http://www.head-hunter.com/jivaro.html

The Yaquis in Northern Mexico defeated the Spaniards in battles so the Spaniards tried not to bother them. And the Mapuche who were a nomadic people managed to hold back the invading Incas. They did the same to the Spaniards. Including defeating them in battle.

Mapuches resisted the Spanish conquest for over 300 years

The Spaniards signed a treaty with the Mapuche which would at times be violated:

The Spanish were forced to sign a treaty in Quillin on January 6, 1641, endorsing their failure to defeat the Mapuche people. As a result with this treaty, Spain recognized the independence of the Mapuche nation. The sovereignty of the Mapuche within their territory south of the Bio-Bio was clearly acknowledged in its provisions by affirming that not Spanish forces could enter Indigenous territory. It was agreed that the Bio-Bio River was the border

Found this article which compares the Aztecs and the Mapuche when it came to the Spaniards. It is a very good article and explains why the Aztecs fell to the Spaniards and not the Mapuche.
http://www.xs4all.nl...e/art/far1.html

And when it came to lack of unity among the natives, the natives in parts of Central America showed much unity under the leadership of the Warrior Lempira who was from the nation we call today Honduras. Unfortunately, when the Spaniards got rid of him the resistance broke up. He was the one holding everyone together.

The Lenca chief, Lempira, a warrior of great renown, managed to unify more than two hundred Indian tribes that had been ancient rivals in order to offer an organized resistance against penetration by the Spanish conquerors

More info. on him http://honduras.com/...ry/lempira.html

Edited by haidao, 17 August 2009 - 04:02 PM.

[mumbaki]

I have a question ,could Spain conquer China during Genghis Khan ,Yuan dynasty and early Ming dynasty era since Spain mission was discover and conquer China and Asian ,am i right ?

What if Spain really reach China in 1200-1500an and not America continent ?
Can the Spanish army and Armada manage to beat Genghis Khan army ,Yuan dynasty army and Ming dynasty army in 1200-1500 an like Spanish colonization of the Americas continent in Mexico and Peru ,defeating the American natives ?

Thanks .

they can only conquer it on the age of fragmentation such as warring states or three kingdoms era....

[brightness]

they can only conquer it on the age of fragmentation such as warring states or three kingdoms era....

The ages of fragmentation such as warring states and three-kingdom tend to have very powerful, technically advanced (for their times) and battle-hardened armies. After all, that's how the Spanish military gained its ascendency in the world: in the battlefields of a fragmented Europe. It was the disused banner armies of a unified but isolated Qing that was found to be thoroughly lacking when it encountered Europeans. None of the prior dynasties in China were quite as "universal" and isolationist as Ming and Qing.

[imabeth]

if the Chinese could defeat the dutch they could defeat the Spanish.

[ctrlsave]

Maybe before we ask questions we should at least google to find what we are asking is even accurate (year it happened etc) the mongols at that time was almost unstoppable and spain didn't exist as a country so ..

[Abaddon]

They had no way of projecting their power over such a distance. Spain managed in America because it was a crippled, backwards area of the world. In 1500's China was advanced as anywhere, and probably had one of the largest economies in the world.

Yes it had become insular and knocked off most of its fleet compared to the Zhang He era.. but I am sure if Spain started knocking, it could have built one again as defence.

Spain would need a lot more investment in infrastructure to get to China as well.

[brightness]

They had no way of projecting their power over such a distance. Spain managed in America because it was a crippled, backwards area of the world. In 1500's China was advanced as anywhere, and probably had one of the largest economies in the world.

Yes it had become insular and knocked off most of its fleet compared to the Zhang He era.. but I am sure if Spain started knocking, it could have built one again as defence.

Spain would need a lot more investment in infrastructure to get to China as well.

China during Ming actually played a very important role in the Spanish Empire. Manila Galleons shuttling between Cebu City in the Phillipines and Acapulco in Mexico started within a couple decades of Pizzaro's conquest of South America. The trade with China played huge role in keeping the silver mining operation in Mexico and Peru profitable. Likewise, the enormous amount of silver imported by China, directly and indirectly from Spaniards in the Phillipines (shipped in from the America mines controlled by the Spaniards) played a huge role in Ming economy. The Spanish was already getting all it could get out of China, e.g. the poor Chinese boys would get up early in the morning to chop down trees and gather firewood to feed the kilns for ceramic export; likewise Chinese girls would nip tea leaves off trees before sun rise and pull silk threads out of boiling water . . . all without having to have a Spanish overseer on-site and exposed to periodic massive peasant rebellions.

What eventually hobbled the Spanish Empire was the rulers' attempt to impose direct rule on its European colony, namely, the Netherlands. That series of wars bankrupted the Spanish Empire.

[Craig]

China during Ming actually played a very important role in the Spanish Empire. Manila Galleons shuttling between Cebu City in the Phillipines and Acapulco in Mexico started within a couple decades of Pizzaro's conquest of South America. The trade with China played huge role in keeping the silver mining operation in Mexico and Peru profitable. Likewise, the enormous amount of silver imported by China, directly and indirectly from Spaniards in the Phillipines (shipped in from the America mines controlled by the Spaniards) played a huge role in Ming economy. The Spanish was already getting all it could get out of China, e.g. the poor Chinese boys would get up early in the morning to chop down trees and gather firewood to feed the kilns for ceramic export; likewise Chinese girls would nip tea leaves off trees before sun rise and pull silk threads out of boiling water . . . all without having to have a Spanish overseer on-site and exposed to periodic massive peasant rebellions.

What eventually hobbled the Spanish Empire was the rulers' attempt to impose direct rule on its European colony, namely, the Netherlands. That series of wars bankrupted the Spanish Empire.

Yes. Galleons, by the way, that were modeled on the Chinese junk. In geo-political terms, it was Chinas thirst for silver that boosted the price of the metal in world markets. The high price of silver financed the voyages of discovery via the Flemish and Medici banking houses. And what was the purpose of China becoming the worlds silver sink? To finance the Great Wall and shore up the Chinese currency that had been beset with inflation. There was a tremendous amount of behind-the-scenes diplomacy between the Holy Roman Empire and China. In 1308, the Diocese of Bejiing had 60,000 parishioners. Cortez was only one amongst many would-be conquistadors who petitioned the Vatican for permission to invade China. The Governor of the Phillipines, Sanchez, even assembled a fleet. Yet history tells us that there was no invasion and that the Manila trade was advantagious to both parties. It was Father Jose' Acosta, who wrote the Vatican position paper titled, 'Why It Would Be Immoral To Invade China' and reined in the rapacious aspirations of Spains nobility. There was a single, unified geo-political strategy of Ming foreign policy that was successfully executed, the major elements being 1) withdrawal of naval capability, 2) completion of the Grand Canal 3) Building the Great Wall to keep Mongols at bay. This view is supported by the fact that all three initiatives were concieved and carried out by one official,the vice admiral of the War Department, Liu shi-Chen.
The Spanish Empire did stretch itself thin and the armada sank in 1588. But as China consolidated its empire, the price of silver...and all metals, fell. It was a wonderful bit of political ju-jitsu. Faced with a just expelled Mongol threat in the north, and incoming fleets of European navies to its south, Cina negotiated a trade and non-aggression pact, a pact that financed the Great Wall.