26 replies to this topic

[bloodmerchant]

No, Spain was in its own Age of Fragmentation period during the 1200s- The Muslims to the south, Castile has not united with Navarra and Aragon. The Christians of Iberia only decided to unite to reconquer the peninsula from the Muslims at the time. The Reconquista was not completed until 1492. If you're talking later, they cannot even fight off the Dutch on Formosa during the Ming Period. The Spaniards already had their own colony on Taiwan, they were driven out by the Dutch. If they drove out the Dutch, then they still would have been defeated by the Chinese.

[brightness]

No, Spain was in its own Age of Fragmentation period during the 1200s- The Muslims to the south, Castile has not united with Navarra and Aragon. The Christians of Iberia only decided to unite to reconquer the peninsula from the Muslims at the time. The Reconquista was not completed until 1492. If you're talking later, they cannot even fight off the Dutch on Formosa during the Ming Period. The Spaniards already had their own colony on Taiwan, they were driven out by the Dutch. If they drove out the Dutch, then they still would have been defeated by the Chinese.

Agree with you on the impossibility during 1200's, 1300's and 1400's. The topic becomes more relevent and uncertain after 1530 or so. The Spanish naval power reached its peak in the mid-1500's. The Dutch didn't come on the scene in Formosa until after gaining independence from the Spanish, and obviously after the Spanish Empire already declined, in the 1600's. A lot of changes took place between 1540 and 1661 (when ZhengChenGong/Koxinga defeated VOC/Dutch East Indies Company at the latter's outpost in Tainan/Zeelandia). That's 120+ years, like 1890 vs. today; global power balance change a lot over 120+ years.

BTW, Koxinga's success against VOC should not be simplistically cast as proof of Chinese military superiority over Dutch. Koxinga was half-Chinese half-Japanese. His "international pirate" professional background went a long way towards his maritime military success. An ordinary Chinese mandarin commanding a Chinese army of the time probably would not have been able to put together the naval fleet, the map of Zeelandia, the African rifle companies (former Dutch slaves who had been trained to use European firearms), and the strategic/operational/tactical finesse that brought about the downfall of Zeelandia through siege. Koxinga and his successors successfully defended their domain against later Chinese (Qing/Manchu) invasion attempts on numerous occasions, until the Dutch allied with Qing and provided the latter with gunships. It was quite clear that the Dutch had far superior weapons both at sea and on land. Zeelandia fell because of Koxinga's unique operational and organizational talent, plus the utter arrogance and unpreparedness on the part of the Dutch commanders (and their superiors in Jakarta, NEI/Indonesia, VOC HQ in the far east).

[Mei Houwang]

Zeelandia fell because of Koxinga's unique operational and organizational talent, plus the utter arrogance and unpreparedness on the part of the Dutch commanders (and their superiors in Jakarta, NEI/Indonesia, VOC HQ in the far east).

I must say Koxinga's operations and organization methods actually weren't that impressive in the case of Zeelandia. His soldiers were starving most of the time. You could, however, argue that the fault lies with Tingbin's false accounts about how Taiwan was a land of plenty, when in fact it was not.

[brightness]

I must say Koxinga's operations and organization methods actually weren't that impressive in the case of Zeelandia. His soldiers were starving most of the time. You could, however, argue that the fault lies with Tingbin's false accounts about how Taiwan was a land of plenty, when in fact it was not.

I agree that operation was not carried out perfectly, but no military operation ever is. We can not compare Koxinga's operation to 20th century Anglo-American "industrialized" amphibious operations (even they had episodes like Dieppe and Dodecanese). Compared to the two Mongol attempts at invading Japan during the peak of Chinese naval power (which was from late Southern Song to early Ming), compared to VOC attempt to take over Macao only two decades earlier, compared to VOC attempt to relieve Zeelandia under Koxinga's siege, compared to Japanese invasion of Taiwan in 1896, heck, even compared to the Japanese and German amphibious operations during WWII (Narvik, Crete, Phillipines, Guadalcanal), Koxinga's invasion of Zeelandia was very well planned and timed: his massive fleet of small ships showed up at the bay on a foggy morning, and was able to overwhelm large Dutch ships with fireship attacks. If it had been a fight on the open water, the large VOC ship Hector alone might have been able to handle the entire Koxinga junk fleet just like how the lone British frigate and merchant ships massacred LinZeXu's fleet at the start of the Opium War. Koxinga timed his fleet to arrive on a foggy morning after several days of sailing, so they could fight the big VOC ship with close-quarter combat with suicidal fireships right off the bat. Koxinga also gathered detailed intelligence, from the Zeelandia fort layout, to the disbanding of VOC mobile fleet just prior to his invasion. As for logistics, Koxinga probably counted on seizing Dutch store of rice and other supplies in the city/settlement outside the fort, and his men succeeded in doing that before the VOC companymen could blow up the store. They even devised an attack route over a narrow channel that the Dutch did not even know existed, to take Provintia, the small fort across the bay and seize the store there. That's far superior intelligence gathering and planning than Kubilai's invasion of Japan finding his men up against a wall that they didn't know existed, or VOC attempt to seize Macao and getting driven off by a few long range artillery shots while the defenders had no infantry on the ground whatsoever, or even Japanese attempts to retake Guadalcanal in the 20th century without ever having a good idea what they were up against. Koxinga probably hoped for a strong show of force, 25,000 vs. 1,800, would convince the VOC defenders to give up without a serious fight, and the VOC reinforcement commanders did do that after seeing the impossible odds. The local VOC commander Coyte however decided to fight and held out for 9 months. That's almost twice as long as Americans holding out in the Phillipines during WWII; even the Japanese 14th Army under Homma ran out of food in that seige, and that's despite 20th century logistics and a Japanese Empire behind the invasion, without an overwhelming hostile Manchu back at home where the invasion fleet came from like Koxinga had to deal with.

Here is an informative site on some of the details of the operation:

http://vocwarfare.ne.../fort-zeelandia

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

An ordinary Chinese mandarin commanding a Chinese army of the time probably would not have been able to put together the naval fleet, the map of Zeelandia, the African rifle companies (former Dutch slaves who had been trained to use European firearms), and the strategic/operational/tactical finesse that brought about the downfall of Zeelandia through siege. Koxinga and his successors successfully defended their domain against later Chinese (Qing/Manchu) invasion attempts on numerous occasions, until the Dutch allied with Qing and provided the latter with gunships. It was quite clear that the Dutch had far superior weapons both at sea and on land. Zeelandia fell because of Koxinga's unique operational and organizational talent, plus the utter arrogance and unpreparedness on the part of the Dutch commanders (and their superiors in Jakarta, NEI/Indonesia, VOC HQ in the far east).

Yet Shi Lang did just that in 1683 and routed the forces of the Koxing regime's navies in Taiwan in the battle of Penghu. And no they did not ally with the Dutch, the Hong Yi cannons and Folanji on the Qing warships were those made by the Qing court itself. There were talks about Dutch aid, but it was never materialized.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 13 October 2010 - 01:20 AM.

[Jaak]

The Manchu did conquer the whole China in 1600-s. And Nurhaci started, after the death of his father and grandfather in 1582, with nothing more but 13 suits of armour (and precisely how many unarmoured soldiers?). A bit more than Genghis Khan (he started with not a single suit of armour, not a single grown man and a grand total of five preteen boys), but not much, and nothing a Spanish galleon could not deliver.

In the 1600-s civil war of China, could some other conqueror than the Manchu have ended up winning?

[brightness]

Yet Shi Lang did just that in 1683 and routed the forces of the Koxing regime's navies in Taiwan in the battle of Penghu. And no they did not ally with the Dutch, the Hong Yi cannons and Folanji on the Qing warships were those made by the Qing court itself. There were talks about Dutch aid, but it was never materialized.

Admiral ShiLang's first naval attempt was a failure. Then he reorganized the fleet and bought cannons from the Dutch. That's what gave him superior armament over the TungNin/Taiwan/Zheng defenders.

Hong Yi == "Red Foreigner" == the Dutch with their red hair
Folanji == Franciscan / Jesuit (Portuguese) advisers who designed the cannons and oversaw their production at the Manchu cannon foundries.

[Mei Houwang]

^I was not aware that ShiLang had a failed naval attempt prior to the battle of Penghu. Can you tell me more about it? Was the opposing commander Koxinga, or did the "failed attempt" happen after his death? (If the opposing commander was indeed Koxinga, then that must have stung considering Koxinga killed all of Shilang's family)

[brightness]

^I was not aware that ShiLang had a failed naval attempt prior to the battle of Penghu. Can you tell me more about it? Was the opposing commander Koxinga, or did the "failed attempt" happen after his death? (If the opposing commander was indeed Koxinga, then that must have stung considering Koxinga killed all of Shilang's family)

IIRC, ShiLang made two attempts at invading TungNin in 1683 alone, one before the hurricane and was beat back by the defenders in naval battle, and then a renewed effort with Dutch help after the hurricane succeeding through superior shipboard firepower. Koxinga was long dead before 1683. In the nearly two decades after Koxinga's death, the Manchus tried to subdue the Zhengs on Taiwan alternatively through military invasion (and threats thereof) and diplomatic negotiations. TungNin couldn't hope to contest against Manchu on land as Manchu had far more numerous land troops, just like what Koxinga had faced on land in mainland previously. The defense was decided in naval contests.

BTW, ShiLang was not an ordinary Chinese mandarin, either. Before defecting to Manchu, he used to work for Koxinga's father's piratical "empire"/enterprise operating in the east china sea, with extensive contacts with various international trading partners in addition to his naval experience. i.e. he was a man of similar background as Koxinga.

[brightness]

The Manchu did conquer the whole China in 1600-s. And Nurhaci started, after the death of his father and grandfather in 1582, with nothing more but 13 suits of armour (and precisely how many unarmoured soldiers?). A bit more than Genghis Khan (he started with not a single suit of armour, not a single grown man and a grand total of five preteen boys), but not much, and nothing a Spanish galleon could not deliver.

In the 1600-s civil war of China, could some other conqueror than the Manchu have ended up winning?

If CongZheng had not hanged himself but withdrew to the south instead as recommended by his advisers, it would be quite conceivable that Manchus would never have been let into China proper. The death of the emperor was quite a surprise even to the peasant rebels themselves, whose trip to Beijing was more about looting than founding a new dynasty.

[mariusj]

The Manchu did conquer the whole China in 1600-s. And Nurhaci started, after the death of his father and grandfather in 1582, with nothing more but 13 suits of armour (and precisely how many unarmoured soldiers?). A bit more than Genghis Khan (he started with not a single suit of armour, not a single grown man and a grand total of five preteen boys), but not much, and nothing a Spanish galleon could not deliver.

In the 1600-s civil war of China, could some other conqueror than the Manchu have ended up winning?

You realize while it is true that Nurhaci started with 13 suits of armor, there is a huge time b/w him having 13 suits of armor and he began his conquest of Liaodong.

Its like saying Genghis Khan was born naked and he conquered much of the world. A naked child!

[Mei Houwang]

IIRC, ShiLang made two attempts at invading TungNin in 1683 alone, one before the hurricane and was beat back by the defenders in naval battle, and then a renewed effort with Dutch help after the hurricane succeeding through superior shipboard firepower.

The first battle is the one I'm curious about. The second battle you mentioned I'm assuming is the battle of Penghu. Can you tell me more about the first battle?