12 replies to this topic

[Altaica Militarica]

Dear colleagues,

On a forum in RUnet I saw a guy who tried to persuade everybody that Manchu was nomadic nation in time of Nuerhaqi.

His main point was "they have all features of nomadic people's culture". And then started to scald everyone who was against this crazy idea.

His points of mysterious "nomadic people's culture" were:

1) Manchu had no original architecture
2) Manchu could not grow the crops
3) Manchu has specific "nomadic" folklore

etc.

I would like to ask you to give to that crazy guy (currently he lives in Changchun and thinks he is a real expert of China and Manchu) enough portion of evidences of Manchu way of life from the primary sources (I gave him excellent citations but he said they were wrong).

[大泽升龙]

Dear colleagues,

On a forum in RUnet I saw a guy who tried to persuade everybody that Manchu was nomadic nation in time of Nuerhaqi.

His main point was "they have all features of nomadic people's culture". And then started to scald everyone who was against this crazy idea.

His points of mysterious "nomadic people's culture" were:

1) Manchu had no original architecture
2) Manchu could not grow the crops
3) Manchu has specific "nomadic" folklore

etc.

I would like to ask you to give to that crazy guy (currently he lives in Changchun and thinks he is a real expert of China and Manchu) enough portion of evidences of Manchu way of life from the primary sources (I gave him excellent citations but he said they were wrong).

Manju or their ancestor Jurchen were not steppe nomads like today's Mongols and Kazakhs but they were pretty nomadic compared to settled agricultural life in middle China.

Edited by 大泽升龙, 24 August 2009 - 03:46 PM.

[tadamson]

Well they lived in wooden buildings in palisaded villages at fixed locations; practised mixed agriculture that included crops and pigs as well as livestock.

Pretty much a definition of not a pastoral nomadic lifestyle.

Edited by tadamson, 20 August 2009 - 06:27 AM.

[Altaica Militarica]

Well they lived in wooden buildings in palisaded villages at fixed locations; practised mixed agriculture that included crops and pigs as well as livestock.

Pretty much a definition of not a pastoral nomadic lifestyle.

Exactly - but the guy sticks to his stupid theory and murmurs something crazy about "thousands of sources and pa[ers" where Manchu were depicted as nomads! Crazy fool!

I even gave the map of Manchu territory (1635) from "Manzhou shilu" and gave several passages from the chronicles but he says stupidly: "They were nomads and borrowed everything from Chinese" (even "portable hives" to get honey when passing to and fro)!

How to explain him the proper situation?

Or let him alive&

[Altaica Militarica]

Manju or their ancestor Jurchen were not steppe nomads like today's Mongols and Kazakhs but they were pretty nomad compared to settled agricultural life in middle China.

Do you mean cattle-breeder, not nomads?

Yes, they used to breed cattle and horses, but they were not nomads at all. They were settled cattle-breeders and huters as well as craftsmen, fishermen and peasants.

[Yizheng]

Exactly - but the guy sticks to his stupid theory and murmurs something crazy about "thousands of sources and pa[ers" where Manchu were depicted as nomads! Crazy fool!

I even gave the map of Manchu territory (1635) from "Manzhou shilu" and gave several passages from the chronicles but he says stupidly: "They were nomads and borrowed everything from Chinese" (even "portable hives" to get honey when passing to and fro)!

How to explain him the proper situation?

Or let him alive&

It probably wouldn't matter how many good sources you could give this guy, if he has made up his mind that manchus are nomads he will see only what he wants to see. Maybe he, and his 'thousands of sources' are just mixed up about who are Manchus, and who are nomadic khitans, or Mongols. I mean, if the western countries could for so long see them all as one, calling them all 'Tatars', well, this one poor guy can probably make the same generalising mistake.
I would say that, sadly, you are probably wasting valuable time trying to help open this guy's eyes. It sounds like you've already given him lots of right directions to look, but if he wants to stay blind, well, what can you do? So he thinks Nurhaci not only built a new empire but also suddenly drastically altered the whole Manchu way of life, making them suddenly sedentary? Well, Nurhaci must have been really an amazing leader. Even Song-era records depicting the Jurchen most negatively describe a sedentary society, like 南燼纪闻 by 黄冀之 (nan jin ji wen, Huang Jizhi), describing Huizong and Qinzong's captivity and journey to Heilongjiang, and it makes jurchens out as completely animal-like, violent, barbarians etc, but depicts them living in towns, sedentary. Or maybe this guy will also say that Manchus are not descendents of the Jurchens.

[yongzheng freak]

Interesting, I have always thought of them as semi-nomadic in earlier times and finally settled down during Nurhaci's time.

[tadamson]

All the records of the early Jurchen describe them living in villages. The are derided as 'pig eaters' and 'cattle breeders'. I suppose the question could be asked; what sort of nomadism did they practice in their forest homelands?

[Yizheng]

The semi-nomadic idea maybe has some sense if you consider that different jurchen groups in different areas had some different ways of living, and perhaps some of the groups, especially in northern areas, had a semi-nomadic life, at least at one time. I read somewhere that some jurchen groups maybe herded reindeer, like other peoples in Siberia. But the overall body of evidence points to a settled life, not nomdic life.

[Altaica Militarica]

The semi-nomadic idea maybe has some sense if you consider that different jurchen groups in different areas had some different ways of living, and perhaps some of the groups, especially in northern areas, had a semi-nomadic life, at least at one time. I read somewhere that some jurchen groups maybe herded reindeer, like other peoples in Siberia. But the overall body of evidence points to a settled life, not nomdic life.

Reindeers were herded by Tungus tribes which are relatives of Manchu but not Manchu itself.

Some tribes of Zabaikalje Region of Russia (i.e. Transbaikalian Region) and Far Easter spoke Tungus language and herded reindeers but the most part of those tribes were purely nomadic and were rivals of Mongols and Buriats. They were called Hamnigan and their chief Gantimur-ulan at first was the independent chief (before 1640th), then he was subdued by Qing empire but lived in his native steppes, then in 1650 he faced Russians and they tried to sudue him. He set a small Russian fortress afire and run away to Qing empire in 1654 and took part in the siege of Kumara Ostrog (small wooden fortress) in 1655, but Qing forces there were beaten by Cossaks and fled. He switched to Russia in 1667 with 40 warriors of his tribe and was allowed by Russian government to unify Hamnigan tribes. In 1675 he had 300 armored lancers. In 1685 he was baptised as Petr and his son Katana - as Pavel. He died in 1689 and in 1692 his son Pavel Gantimurov had 3000 armored lancers. They made deer-breeders to move northward.

Gantimur-Petr became the founder of Gantimurovy princes in Tzarist Russia.

They were really nomads in XVII-XIX centuries, but they were not part of Manchu.

[Altaica Militarica]

All the records of the early Jurchen describe them living in villages. The are derided as 'pig eaters' and 'cattle breeders'. I suppose the question could be asked; what sort of nomadism did they practice in their forest homelands?

Please take into consideration that the valley of Hetu-Ala (the crechers of Manchu state) was only about 6 miles in length and about 2-3 miles in width.

[Corean Chinghiz]

Manchus were a cross between a sedentery and nomadic society. . They had a strong agricultural base in shenyang. I would call them semi-sedentery.

[Korin]

How do you define 'Nomadic' - I mean who were the Nomadic tribes that kept attacking China's great wall. Manchu were probably semi-nomadic once during their history but if they still exist today, I doubt it. I mean what about the Tribes in Outer Manchuria which is basically in Russia, were they nomadic?

Edited by Korin, 21 April 2013 - 01:05 AM.