69 replies to this topic

[Juchechosunmanse]

http://www.seoprise....d...1&start=770

Does this guy's argument hold any water?

Edited by General_Zhaoyun, 09 September 2009 - 10:09 PM.

[Juchechosunmanse]

From KBS' "History Special-만주대탐사2":

http://www.kbs.co.kr...5745_30885.html

[mrclub]

from wikipedia

The Veritable Records and other documents contain the foundation myth of the Aisin Gioro clan:

There was a lake called Bulhūri at the foot of Bukūri Mountain, located to the east of the Changbai Mountains (Korean Paektu Mountains). When three angels bathed in that lake, a magpie left a fruit on the youngest angel Fekulen's clothes. She ate the fruit and became pregnant. She mothered Bukūri Yongšon, the founder of Aisin Gioro. He was later welcomed by the people as the Beile. He settled at Odoli Castle on the Omohoi Plain and became the founder of the Manchu State.
This myth has interested many historians.[citation needed] Similar stories can be found in other northern people's mythology. Yongšon seems to have come from Chinese yingxiong (英雄; hero) and Odoli would be modern-day Hoeryong (hangul: 회령, hanja: 會寧) in North Hamgyong Province (Hangul: 함경 북도, Hanja: 咸鏡北道), North Korea. A recent study found that a 1635 article of Jiu Manzhou Dang (old Manchu archives), which was omitted from later documents, says that a man from the Hūrha tribe on the Upper Amur River told the exactly same myth. In fact, Kangxi period maps shows Bukūri Mountain and Bulhūri Lake near Heilongjiang. It is considered that the Manchu imperial family incorporated Hūrha's legend into their own foundation myth.

Although the Changbai/Paekdu Mountains (golmin šanggiyan alin in Manchu) are regarded as the birthplace of the Aisin Gioro clan, their relationship with this legend is questionable[citation needed]. As explained above, the mythical arena was near Heilongjiang, not the Changbai Mountains. In addition, a careful analysis on early Manchu records proved[citation needed] that the description of the Changbai Mountains at the beginning of this legend had been inserted for the first time in the Shunzhi-era version of the Veritable Records for Nurhaci.

[General_Zhaoyun]

http://www.seoprise....d...1&start=770

Does this guy's argument hold any water?

It's another myth propagated by Korean nationalist. Aisin Gioro is clearly Manchu and their further ancestry is Jurchen.

[Juchechosunmanse]

It's another myth propagated by Korean nationalist. Aisin Gioro is clearly Manchu and their further ancestry is Jurchen.

What about the part from 欽定 滿洲源流考 that "我朝得姓曰愛新覺羅氏 國語爲金曰愛新 可爲金源同派之證", "金始祖 本從 新羅來 號完顔氏 所部稱完顔部 新羅王金姓則金之遠派出"? Any truth to it?

[General_Zhaoyun]

This "theory" of Wanyan Aguda 完颜阿骨打 (founder of Jin Dynasty, leader of Jurchen tribes) being related to Korean was propagated by KBS's (Korea) recent historical documentary "Exploration of Manchuria", where they argued that Wanyan Aguda was the descendent of Silla. His Silla ancester was called Hanjin 函普 and originally had the surname "Jin 金" ("kim" in Korean) .

Their next argument was that Aisin Gioro 爱新觉罗 was the surname of Manchu Imperial family during Qing. "Aisin 爱新" means "Jin 金" (gold) in Manchu language ("Kim" in korean) while "Gioro 觉罗" means surname 姓 in Manchu language.

[SNK_1408]

It's another myth propagated by Korean nationalist. Aisin Gioro is clearly Manchu and their further ancestry is Jurchen.

No one denies Aisin Gioro became Manchu, remember Manchu ethnicity was formed after Qing was established.
Wasn't Manchu was predominately one of the Jurchen stock plus other people including Mongolian, Chinese and Korean?

How do you explain this clan's founding myth?
http://en.wikipedia....Foundation_myth

Was it just made up c**p to make Aisin Gioro special?

This "theory" of Wanyan Aguda 完颜阿骨打 (founder of Jin Dynasty, leader of Jurchen tribes) being related to Korean was propagated by KBS's (Korea) recent historical documentary "Exploration of Manchuria", where they argued that Wanyan Aguda was the descendent of Silla. His Silla ancester was called Hanjin 函普 and originally had the surname "Jin 金" ("kim" in Korean) .

Their next argument was that Aisin Gioro 爱新觉罗 was the surname of Manchu Imperial family during Qing. "Aisin 爱新" means "Jin 金" (gold) in Manchu language ("Kim" in korean) while "Gioro 觉罗" means surname 姓 in Manchu language.

Aisin means 'Gold' in Manchu/Jurchen word
Altan means 'Gold in Mongolian
Alchun means 'Gold' in Proto-Korean word (same for Shilla word)

Btw, you don't simply adopt existing '金' as surname just because your clan name is referring to 'Gold'.
How can powerful/royal clan like Aisin Gioro adopted '金' simply because they wanted to convert their name to Sino names?

Did you know many North Koreans that used to lived on far corner of Northern Korean peninsula used 'Kim' as their surname?
My grand mother's ancestral land was just North side of Tuman river, they actually owned piece of land there even during Qing era.
My grand mother's surname is 'Kim' too.

[YuwenTai]

It seems to me that the main problem is whether the korean is an altaic language or not.

[Juchechosunmanse]

No one denies Aisin Gioro became Manchu, remember Manchu ethnicity was formed after Qing was established.
Wasn't Manchu was predominately one of the Jurchen stock plus other people including Mongolian, Chinese and Korean?

Yes, however I am asking if there is any concrete proof showing the Aisin Gioro family was of Korean descent? To me that Aisin means “Gold” in Manchu is not good enough.

How do you explain this clan's founding myth?
http://en.wikipedia....Foundation_myth

Was it just made up c**p to make Aisin Gioro special?

What’s up with this founding myth? Many ethnicities, including ancient Koreans and Manchurians etc., were living in what is now northeastern China. Is the founding myth indicative of them being Korean?

Btw, you don't simply adopt existing '金' as surname just because your clan name is referring to 'Gold'.
How can powerful/royal clan like Aisin Gioro adopted '金' simply because they wanted to convert their name to Sino names?

They did not convert their name to “Sino name” until the 20th century, after the fall of Qing Dynasty. So why can’t the Manchus have last names that mean “Gold”?

Did you know many North Koreans that used to lived on far corner of Northern Korean peninsula used 'Kim' as their surname?
My grand mother's ancestral land was just North side of Tuman river, they actually owned piece of land there even during Qing era.
My grand mother's surname is 'Kim' too.

How is this relevant? Kim is a popular last name among the Koreans, everyone knows that.

Again I am looking for some concrete proof showing Wanyan Aguda and the Aisin Gioro family were of Korean descent. I contacted KBS asking for a transcript of the show and more information on their claim. I have not heard from them yet. Will keep you guys posted.

[SNK_1408]

Yes, however I am asking if there is any concrete proof showing the Aisin Gioro family was of Korean descent? To me that Aisin means “Gold” in Manchu is not good enough.

What’s up with this founding myth? Many ethnicities, including ancient Koreans and Manchurians etc., were living in what is now northeastern China. Is the founding myth indicative of them being Korean?

They did not convert their name to “Sino name” until the 20th century, after the fall of Qing Dynasty. So why can’t the Manchus have last names that mean “Gold”?

How is this relevant? Kim is a popular last name among the Koreans, everyone knows that.

Again I am looking for some concrete proof showing Wanyan Aguda and the Aisin Gioro family were of Korean descent. I contacted KBS asking for a transcript of the show and more information on their claim. I have not heard from them yet. Will keep you guys posted.

1. So you think during 16th century, Some Manchu clan named "Aisin Gioro" suddenly changed to '金' just because it was mean "Gold"?.

2. 16th century is key point here, only Aisin Gioro clan have myth referring to part of the Korean peninsula. When we referring to myths, we should be talking about legendary times not 16th century.

3. I don't think is the surname that really matters here, it's their birth place. Aisin Gioro clan's birth place was 회령 함경 북도 North Korea, and again I would like to emphasis their place birth was during 16th century. Did you know there was another Jurchen clans were living there at the time? But no mention of Aisin Gioro in any historical texts other than Qing's records.

4. Did you know most of Jurchen clans that lived on 함경 북도 region converted their names to Yi (Lee), Kim, Seok, Wang etc.. ? Even before 16th century? Btw, this was pretty much same for Koreans who didn't had surnames. Joseon Dynasty ruling class Yangban made mandatory for every Koreans and people lived on kingdom to have surnames.

5. Most Koreans that lived on 함경 북도 region didn't had Kim as popular surname. Btw, Joseon Dynasty founder Yi Seonggey also comes from this region too.

6. Btw, I did not stated that Wanyan Aguda and the Aisin Gioro family were of Korean descent, they were one of these Jurchen clans that lived side by side with Koreans that shared same birth place. Frankly speaking, I'm pretty sure their genetics would have been quite similar to local Koreans in 함경 북도.

7. Once again, ethnicity =/= nationality

8. Jurchens were clearly distance themselves from Koreans, like wise Koreans threated them as Orangkei (barbarian).

9. Have you heard of Koreanized-Jurchen? Most of these Koreanized Jurchen clans were one of these Jurchens clans that lost their homelands to other Jurchen clans and fled to 함경 북도, first Koreans refused to take them, but ruling class of both Koryo to Joseon eventually excepted them to lived mostly in 함경 북도 because they were causing troubles.

10. During Jin Dynasty of Wanyan Aguda, there are no records of wars between Jurchen Dynasty and Korea, other than some skirmishes done by some other Jurchen clans.

[WangGeon]

Just so this thread doesn't yet again become one of those pointless "oh-those-crazy-Koreans" or Minjok juui banter, I should point out that a lot of these peculiar theories don't just pop out of nowhere and actually have been based on thoughtful (although often misguided) analysis by nationalistic scholars, a phenomena that is by no means confined to Korean scholarship (as this also has appeared commonly in Japanese nationalist scholarship and the discourse of the black-ness of the Ancient Egyptians among African nationalists). In all cases, the bitter ironies of early ethnographic scholarship was built upon a foundation of racism, a means in which imperial powers and scholars, even if they were genuinely fascinated with what they were looking at, sought to categorize the world into arbitrary definitions of race and applications of Social Darwinism to explain the supposed inherent defficiences of a given "race."

So where does the supposed Jurchen-Korean connection come from? Ironically, early theories of the supposed Jurchen-Korean connection came from Russian scholars (Shirokogoroff) and Japanese scholars (Torii, Shiratori) when they identified Koreans along with Manchus as being descended from peoples classified as "Proto-Tungus" or "Paleo-Asiatics." In this case, the Koreans and Manchus were considered as having branched off from the Proto-Tungus "Paleo-Asiatics" as the modern Chinese moved into the Yellow River valley area, their supposed home territory, forcing them into present-day Manchuria and Korea. Hence, Koreans and Manchus were classified among ethnographers as "Tungusic" peoples. The Japanese also considered Koreans and Manchurians as direct descendents of the Paleo-Asiatics, culminating in a race concept of "Mansen" (Manchu-Korean) that became prevalent in Japanese race scholarship.

What gets lost in all this mess is the apparent forgetting of the darker, racist imperialist origins behind the "Tungus" and "Mansenshi" discourse. When the Russians classified the "Tungus," they were in actuality in the process of driving these very people to the brink of extinction right at the same time as the Russian empire's power expanded into Siberia and the present-day "Russian Far East." The Russians percieved of these people, barely surviving in the wilds of Siberia (in large part due to Russian imperial exploitation), as primitives supposedly locked in time and thus gave rise to the supposition that these "Tungus" people were direct descendants from earlier allegedly primitive races [Pai, 2000]. The term "Tungus" itself is a shaky term as it came from a derrogatory term used by local inhabitants to describe the said "primitives." In fact, these peoples had changed dramatically because of imperialist expansion and thus were not at all a people locked in time as the Russians assumed. The Japanese similarly appropriated this concept in their Mansenshi studies indirectly as a means of degrading both the Manchus and the Koreans as backwards primitives that were locked in time and therefore inferior. This is a commonplace issue of scholarship regarding many cultures that experienced head-on collisions with imperialism and something that nationalist historians do not yet realize.

Before we can completely discard nationalist scholarship, however, we should acknowledge that there are *some* things that we can look or second look at. If we are to arbitrarily classify things in accordance to "race" categories, then we are still assuming that there is somehow a "pure" such-and-such a race as if these peoples popped out of holes in the ground. I would not doubt that there are connections between various peoples in Northeast Asia.

[lumber]

"This "theory" of Wanyan Aguda 完颜阿骨打 (founder of Jin Dynasty, leader of Jurchen tribes) being related to Korean was propagated by KBS's (Korea) recent historical documentary "Exploration of Manchuria", where they argued that Wanyan Aguda was the descendent of Silla. His Silla ancester was called Hanjin 函普 and originally had the surname "Jin 金" ("kim" in Korean) .

Their next argument was that Aisin Gioro 爱新觉罗 was the surname of Manchu Imperial family during Qing. "Aisin 爱新" means "Jin 金" (gold) in Manchu language ("Kim" in korean) while "Gioro 觉罗" means surname 姓 in Manchu language."

To answer your question, one must read the whole chapter of this sentence from (Jin Zhi, Chapter 1) 金史 卷一 本紀第一 世紀:

"金之先，出靺鞨氏。靺鞨本號勿吉。勿吉，古肅慎地也。元魏時，勿吉有七部：曰粟末部、曰伯咄部、曰安車骨部、曰拂涅部、曰號室部、曰黑水部、曰白山部。隋稱靺鞨，而七部並同。唐初，有黑水靺鞨、粟末靺鞨，其五部無聞。粟末靺鞨始附高麗，姓大氏。李績破高麗，粟末靺鞨保東牟山。後爲渤海，稱王，傳十餘世。有文字、禮樂、官府、制度。有五京、十五府、六十二州。黑水靺鞨居肅慎地，東瀕海，南接高麗，亦附於高麗。嘗以兵十五萬衆助高麗拒唐太宗，敗于安市。開元中，來朝，置黑水府，以部長爲都督、刺史，置長史監之。賜都督姓李氏，名獻誠，領黑水經略使。其後渤海盛強，黑水役屬之，朝貢遂絕。五代時，契丹盡取渤海地，而黑水靺鞨附屬於契丹。其在南者籍契丹，號熟女直；其在北者不在契丹籍，號生女直。生女直地有混同江、長白山，混同江亦號黑龍江，所謂「白山黑水」是也。

　　金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來，年已六十餘矣。兄阿古乃好佛，留高麗不肯從，曰：「後世子孫必有能相聚者，吾不能去也。」獨與弟保活里俱。"


Which translate: "The Mohe are the ancestors of the Jin. the Mohe were called Wuji, the Wuji lived on the land of the Sushen people. There are seven Wuji tribes: Sumo, Boduo, Anchegu, Funie, Haoshi, Heishui, Baishan.
During the early Tang dynasty, the Sumo Mohe was a vassal of Koguryo and surnamed 'Da'.
Tang destroyed Koguryo, and the Sumo Mohe retreated to the to eastern mountains and estabilishes the state of Bohai, calling itself king and has writing, music, established five capitals, five governments, sixteen provinces.
The Heishui (Blackwater) Mohe were also vassals of Koguryo and sent 150,000 troops to aid Koguryo against the Tang, but they were defeated at Anshi.
During the Five dynasties period the Khitans destroyed Bohai, and the Heishui Mohe became a vassals of the Khitans. The southern ones became citizens of Liao [the Khitan state] and were known as "cooked" [meaning assimilated] Jurchen, while the northern ones were not citizens of Liao and thus were called "raw" [unassimilated] Jurchens.
The "raw" Jurchen lived between the Heilongjiang River and Changbai Mountains, and so were called 'white mountain, black water.'
The ancestor of Jin, Hanpu 60 years old came from Koryo. His older brother Agunai was interested in Buddhism and thus did not come with him and remained in Koryo.
Their decendants were Shitumen and Digunai. When Taizhu [Wanyan Aguda] defeated Liao, Wodaci proclaimed to Bohai people "Bohai, Jurchen were originally one family" both were from seven tribes of Wuji."


It is obvious that this has taken out of context. Are manchu koreans? No

Last but not least, One must realise that Aisin Gioro (愛新覺羅) is actually a Han word PROUNOUCIATION of Aisin Gioro and it is not to reflect as a meaning. Also "Aisin" is a subname, "Gioro" is the SURNAME. So people who have the name "Gioro" would be related, but people only with "Aisin" would not.

I think this is clear enough. Those guys in KBS obviously havent done enough research or really want to fabricate.

Edited by lumber, 18 September 2009 - 01:32 PM.

[lumber]

欽定滿洲源流考


欽定四庫全書

欽定滿洲源流考

乾隆四十二年八月十九日内閣奉

上諭頃閲金史世紀云金始祖居完顔部其地有白山黒水白山即長白山黒水即黒龍江本朝肇興東土山川鍾毓與大金正同史又稱金之先出靺鞨部古肅慎地我朝肇興時舊稱滿珠所屬曰珠申後改稱滿珠而漢字相沿訛為滿洲其實即古肅慎為珠申之轉音更足徴疆

I cannot be bothered to translate, but the first sentence in this sources says here that Jin comes from Mohe. I guess KBS have taken it out of context again by quoting something that says it from Korea, like they did with Jin zhi.

Edited by lumber, 18 September 2009 - 01:48 PM.

[Shogun 144]

Just to contribute my own, albeit small, thoughts into this discussion:

lumber,

That is a very interesting translation you have made from the Jinshi and about the Aisin Gioro name. However it has been understanding that the original surname of the Later Jin/Qing ruling family was just Gioro. The name was changed to Aisin Gioro by Hong Taiji for two primary reasons. Firstly to differentiate between the different Gioro families by giving his own a unique modifier, and secondly to establish a link with the ruling family of the Jurchen Jin. This link between the Jin and the Qing was actually an obsession of not only Hong Taiji but of his grandson the Kangxi Emperor as well.

This is my understanding from what I have been able to gleam from A Translucent Mirror: History and Identity in Qing Imperial Ideology
by Pamela Kyle Crossley over on Google Books. I have found it an invaluable (if sometimes frustrating in where it cuts off) tool as I have a limited book budget.

[GettingTHEFACTSRITE]

I find this discussion to be quite intriguing. As to whether Aisin Gioro was korean or not. It is extremely hard to tell unless you do a Y-chromosome DNA test to test for validity of geneaological relationship between the Manchus and Koreans. While I don't surmise that Manchu is Korean. Yet since Kingdom of Goguryeo and Balhae had a mix of Jurchen and Korean ruling class, over the years intermarriage and assimilation was possible, but in my opinion in terms of the origin of the two race to a certain point, as of now, they are different races that had a mutual benefit in cooexisitng with one another with similar customs. However, if one want to go further in describing ancestry and relation wouldn't that make all Asian related? Since according to archaeological and historical sources it is an scientifically believed theory that most of the world population migrated from Africa and later branched out...As such it brings me to question at what point...at what stage...at what time...and what factors would you draw the line that these two races are different?