I think the W and V ~ Y is an influence from Cantonese as we know Northern Viet has no W. Cantonese as W but no V.
But Cantonese will in no way approximate V with Y.
Usually they do it with F or W.
Also KW and KhW are separate sounds from W in Cantonese, they won't do it.
After I mentioned that iê and ia are the same in Modern Vietnamese, one Vietnamese member proposed that V somehow became WY, as seen from the change of về into sth like yìa instead of yề.
t- initial in the reconstruction which could be correlated with Viet d.
I think the word 紙 'paper' in Chinese was also reconstructed with a /t/ initial right?
Somehow Starostin constructed late Han and early Han differently, though.
danh has an m- initial in Chinese. How did it become d in Viet?
This is the Chongniu problem, where Vietnamese seem to change *m to d, *p and *b to t and *ph to th.
名鼻必屁 are examples.
It's said that a "strong y" after the initials cause a change in the previous consonant.
(some says that it might be something that sound like French j though)
I heard ng- there. Maybe the pronunciation was too slight that non-Viet couldn't hear
There seems to be a slight nasalization between "au" and "w". I don't think it's true ng, though.
Where do Limgao people live?
Have you listened to Tày language? I don't know how it sounds myself.
Neither do I.
What do you mean by darker/lighter impression syllables?
Well, after comparing Limgao and Zhuang a lot of times then there's such kind of impressions. There's seems to be much less "o" (like in "oi","on") in Zhuang as compared to Limgao, but there's a lot more u and ư.
"long a" (as in "ai") also seems to be less in Zhuang.
In the first video many vowels give me a Cantonese impression rather than Viet (especially the part "ni sit ngo ngo" at the end).
Though for me it doesn't sound like Cantonese at all.
Last part sounds like "nghi sit ngô ngô" to me.
Some parts of singing sound a bit like Vietnamese but other parts sound more like Cantonese. The parts with ơ vowels sound Viet and the parts with ou vowels sound Cantonese.
Strange. I found no ou in the song. But I do find quite a number of "iang" and "iau".
There are two many L initials though and this makes it sound unlike Vietnamese.
Could be because of the lyrics.
I think "lai mân lai" is part of the title. The phrase "lai mân lai lê ngun toi hao bông" seem to be keep repeated.
Btw, actually there's a Vietnamese poem with all R- initials. Not sure if you will find it un-Viet as well. (as I know that R- is not often used in Vietnamese).
The second video doesn't sound like Vietnamese at all.
Looking at the lyrics and comparing with spoken form, I found that there's a lot of Chinese loans.
To me, it still sounds fairly like Viet as there's a lot of ơ/â-like sound and đ.
(Chinese in red): kho kho lien
đak lak oi
mơn hu lo(u) vân mơ hao na hu con.
phong phong tiang
lai lai nien
mân hu en tĕay
mơn mai mơ
en lai yit mo von
mơ hao hep con quayoan
hao lo nha toi pha loi mat pho
Somehow "hep con qua" creates an impression of Vietnamese. (at first I heard "het con qua")
The first video sounds Viet except for some vowels that sound like iew (between eo and iêu of Vietnamese), biew at 0:18 and liew biew at 0:24, shieng at 0:51 (not like siêng of Vietnamese). Eliminating all the -ie- vowels [note it's difference from Vietnamese -iê-] and the excessive use of "ay" [note ay here is different from Viet ay; Viet ay is lighter, this ay is heavier and gives an un-Vietnamese impression] then it really sounds like Viet. (Some ou vowels in the song give an un-Vietnamese impression too but it's minor.)
0:18 sounds "piau" to me. 0:51 sounds like "sxiang" to me. I also find "piay". But again, I do not find "ou".
Not sure what you mean by "heaviness" of "ay". To me there are just ây and ay.
The second video sounds like Viet (with some mixing with Chinese) at the beginning but as the song goes on, it sounds more and more like Chinese, especially the Sh part that makes me think of Mandarin.
Btw, this and a few before are not videos, just sounds.
Indeed there's a borrowing of "wei liau" and "yuen yi" from Mandarin that are repeated many times. After "wei liau" (01:06) then it sounds to have less "Taic" impression.
Vietnamese has Sh but we just don't sing it.
Well, I guess there's no rule to "omit sh sounds in song" except in Vietnam.
Oh also the L initial occurs much more frequently than in Vietnamese. I'm not used to hearing letter L that often so it does create some strangeness to me.
Indeed somehow there's a lot of L in the Limgao sound samples. A bit less in Zhuang.
But again, there's a Vietnamese poem with a lot of R-, which normally occur quite rarely.
Two many ou vowels that give an un-Vietnamese impression. We have o/ô/ao/au/âu in Vietnamese but it just doesn't sound like this ou.
Note that the real Zhuang only starts after 00:56, before it, I guess it's English and I do find a lot of ou.
Again I don't find any "ou" in the "Real Zhuang".
Vowel-wise it's more like Vietnamese that the above Zhuang because most of its vowels are like standard Vietnamese vowels.
Consonant-wise not so much because many ch/zh there don't sound likeViet ch/tr
To me it doesn't sound Vietnamese as there are no vowel ơ, though there are ai, oi. Though the frequency of "o" in Danzhou is higher than most Chinese.
Vowel variation here also sounds smaller than Zhuang.
In contrary to the Zhuang samples, in here I find quite a number of "ou", as in 00:50 phuy đou đung, phuy dou tai.
The first "đou" even sounds đo-u to fit the tones. Though maybe this "u" is not as rounded as "normal u".
Not only that, there is also "uo" in 01:10 "chuo ot ton ha ngai oi". But again, it doesn't sound as "round".
I also find "iaa" (different from Viet "ia" but similar to Zhuang, Limgao and Mandarin, though it's not that frequent).
Edited by qrasy, 22 November 2009 - 10:17 PM.