327 replies to this topic

[Yeleixingfeng]

I was wondering, could the gui-na-tau be 幾偌兜?

[mrclub]

Singapore here, bathing in Teochew is "zang ek", Hokkien is "zang zui"

What's the Chinese character for "zang"

[mrclub]

Saliva 口水 -- nua.
What is the character for "nua" ?

And...公司食，公司用，公司分 etc. I believe these phrases are not alien to members, right ?
However, I heard in proper Teochew, it is "sio gan 食", "sio gan 用", "sio gan 分" etc.
What are the characters for "sio gan" ?

[xng]

And...公司食，公司用，公司分 etc. I believe these phrases are not alien to members, right ?

Kongsi actually originates from Chinese association, read here

"To the Chinese, a kongsi is an association of individuals from the same dia-lect group or those from the same area in China."

"The word kongsi has been absorbed into the Malay language, taking the meaning ‘share’"

http://www.mypenang....-site&Itemid=55

[xng]

Could 'Sui' be 帥 ?


The sound is close and the tone is the same. Meaning is also close.

[lifezard]

Could 'Sui' be 帥 ?


The sound is close and the tone is the same. Meaning is also close

帥 to denote handsome seems to be a more recent evolution, anyone can confirm? Thai 'suay' will be a better fit imho

Saliva 口水 -- nua.
What is the character for "nua" ?

唾 will be the closest character I can think of, being close in meaning, sound and even tone (both are in departing tone).. however it seem to compare well to some tai languages ( i read on a book either 'laai' or 'laan') too

[qrasy]

帥 to denote handsome seems to be a more recent evolution, anyone can confirm?

One should indeed suspect that.
http://www.zdic.net/...dicB8Zdic85.htm has no ancient record for that meaning of 帥 even though it has plenty for other meanings.

Thai 'suay' will be a better fit imho

Indeed Thai สวย fits it. "สวย" has no tone mark here but it doesn't have "default tone" in Minnan ["媠"(替字) has 陰上], so it's somewhat likely to have involved some loaning.

唾 will be the closest character I can think of, being close in meaning, sound and even tone (both are in departing tone).. however it seem to compare well to some tai languages ( i read on a book either 'laai' or 'laan') too

"laan" 瀾 (借字) is also found in Hakka, if I recall correctly. [潘悟云 reconstructed 涎 as *ljan, it's also a lookalike]
And it fits the pattern in Minnan where an => ua~ (and l__~ => n__~).

Thai has น้ำลาย (water น้ำ + laai ลาย), the "laai" here is in default tone and has no -n, though.

[lifezard]

One should indeed suspect that.
http://www.zdic.net/...dicB8Zdic85.htm has no ancient record for that meaning of 帥 even though it has plenty for other meanings.

Indeed Thai สวย fits it. "สวย" has no tone mark here but it doesn't have "default tone" in Minnan ["媠"(替字) has 陰上], so it's somewhat likely to have involved some loaning.

so who borrowed from who in your opinion?

"laan" 瀾 (借字) is also found in Hakka, if I recall correctly. [潘悟云 reconstructed 涎 as *ljan, it's also a lookalike]
And it fits the pattern in Minnan where an => ua~ (and l__~ => n__~).

Thai has น้ำลาย (water น้ำ + laai ลาย), the "laai" here is in default tone and has no -n, though.

i agree totally with you.. indeed hakka and min in general , not just minnan seems to cluster together against other groups on this word:

http://www.pkucn.com...d=163632&page=2

if my memory dun fail me, my tai examples are from taic languages in china, not thai

[qrasy]

so who borrowed from who in your opinion?

I don't have enough data to tell.

i agree totally with you.. indeed hakka and min in general , not just minnan seems to cluster together against other groups on this word:

http://www.pkucn.com...d=163632&page=2

It would seem that Hakka had Min influences, though not specifically Minnan.

if my memory dun fail me, my tai examples are from taic languages in china, not thai

Here is Starostin's collection of Tai words for Saliva: http://starling.rine...umber&ic_any=on

Seems that there's no evidence of "-n" ending among Tai.

[xng]

唾 will be the closest character I can think of, being close in meaning, sound and even tone (both are in departing tone).. however it seem to compare well to some tai languages ( i read on a book either 'laai' or 'laan') too

唾 I thought the sound is 'Tho' which is too far off from 'Nua'.

瀾 is a high possibility as the sound is correct but the meaning could have been changed. The modern meaning is 'waves/ripple' which could mean 'waves' from the mouth in ancient times.

涎 has the correct meaning but the sound is 'sien' which is too far off.

Edited by xng, 22 June 2011 - 07:18 AM.

[qrasy]

唾 I thought the sound is 'Tho' which is too far off from 'Nua'.

This also can't really explain "lan" reading.

瀾 is a high possibility as the sound is correct but the meaning could have been changed. The modern meaning is 'waves/ripple' which could mean 'waves' from the mouth in ancient times.

Tone is "incorrect" as "瀾" should predictably give 陽平.
Hakka reading suggests that it belongs to 陽上 (same tone as the colloquial reading of "馬"), even though it merged with "爛" (陽去) in Hokkien Minnan.

The meaning itself is far. To quote ancient book,
大波為瀾,小波為淪。 ——《爾雅》
(which is reminiscent of "浪")

Another meaning of 瀾 is a "mistake" for 灡, which means "water of washing rice".

涎 has the correct meaning but the sound is 'sien' which is too far off.

This 'sien' is just a literary reading; it's almost identical to Mandarin reading xian2.
Still, a colloquial reading for 邪-consonant usually won't have l-/n-.

---

Does anybody know the tone for "nua~" in Chaozhou?

Edited by qrasy, 22 June 2011 - 10:01 AM.

[mrclub]

Does anybody know the tone for "nua~" in Chaozhou?

No idea. Maybe sound close to Putonghua's 第二声？

[xng]

This 'sien' is just a literary reading; it's almost identical to Mandarin reading xian2.

If we look at the colloquail sound for 延, it would be 'Ng' which is also far off from 'nua', literary sound is 'ien'.

The closest character is still 瀾 as the tone can change and the ancient meaning can be slightly different from modern meaning eg. Tia becomes 'wok' in modern times.

Edited by xng, 24 June 2011 - 08:49 AM.

[qrasy]

No idea. Maybe sound close to Putonghua's 第二声？

Which tone is closest among these characters: 三九四零五二七八六?

If we look at the colloquail sound for 延, it would be 'Ng' which is also far off from 'nua', literary sound is 'ien'.

The same rhyme can have different correspondences in colloquial Minnan, e.g. the single character 坪 has both {Zhangzhou: e~, Quanzhou: i~} and ia~ and 石 has ioh (usual) and iah (only for a few words like 石榴, 石硯).
Some of -ien (literary) does appear to correspond to -ua~ (colloquial).
So far, the l/n- consonant is the biggest problem.

The closest character is still 瀾 as the tone can change and the ancient meaning can be slightly different from modern meaning eg. Tia becomes 'wok' in modern times.

Between Ding (鼎) and Wok, we can see the close relation as their usage is similar.
If it's hand vs arm or leg vs foot, one can also see the close relation.

But for "huge wave" vs "saliva", one don't see that.

Edited by qrasy, 28 June 2011 - 12:30 AM.

[mrclub]

Which tone is closest among these characters: 三九四零五二七八六?

Should be 零