78 replies to this topic

[qrasy]

If that is the case then why aren't more Jomon, Mongols and Turks trying to get a piece of China. With this piece of info they could reasonably invoke some native territorial rights.

I think some Mongolians might be thinking of pieces of land in Inner Mongolia.
For Turks... Xinjiang is too far from them, separated by those "stans" that are dominated by Turkic states.

I have heard that the O group had its presence cornered in Yunnan before it began its divergence and became associated with basically 3 groups: A Yangtze river basin group which would include the subgroups of Miao, Baiyue, Austroasiatic, a Tibeto-Burman group, and a Yellow river Huaxia group. I'm not sure about the whole second migration from Xinjiang to Northern China.

I think we have to find the study again and read carefully...

He's talking about the way Mongolians moving into Han territory as a group would have carried their women along with them and so the northern Han would have a percentage showing the Mongolian side of things while this would be far less so more south you go because there would be less Mongolians taking residence. Southern Han while not pure would not in significant terms have a percentage showing the Mongolian side of things but rather it would all come across as O-marker if you don't estrange the females away from their O-marker carrying fathers.

That is where I am wondering: whether the migrations take a lot of females with them, or not.
I do know that Kalmyks move whole families not only females, and as a result they are still mostly "Mongoloid" now.
But, if their O-yDNA are similar, why not also mtDNA? I don't think it would be "female-dominated" migration.

Oops, sorry, wrong writing. It should be C and D as the proto-Asian.

Those were probably only distantly related to Mongoloids.

Sorry again. I mean the ancestor of O yDNA, Haplogroup MNOPS.

Those that are closer to the ancestors of O (I think things like F, K) can also be found in Middle East.

yDNA NO and R has close relationship compare with any other yDNA group.

They are close, however N and O are considerably closer to each other than say, A or B.

Most of Northern Chinese live near Turkic border, so does other O yDNA group of people who live in SE Asia who live near Austronesian people. It's well-known that Northern Chinese has some physical similarity with the Turkic people, while SE Asian has some similarity with Austronesian people like Australia Aborigine and Papuan.

I thought it might be referring to immune genes instead of physical characteristics?
Anyway, the point was that it's not easy to tell whether South Chinese or North Chinese are purer.

[mohistManiac]

I think we have to find the study again and read carefully...

That is where I am wondering: whether the migrations take a lot of females with them, or not.
I do know that Kalmyks move whole families not only females, and as a result they are still mostly "Mongoloid" now.
But, if their O-yDNA are similar, why not also mtDNA? I don't think it would be "female-dominated" migration.

http://ling.uta.edu/~jerry/pol.pdf I'm not going to read it again as I don't even understand half of the things it was talking about but I did read through it and you could find what I was talking about the subgroups in the paper where it contains explicit route mapping of the paths these groups took in diverging and entering China.

As for the Mongolian females it kind of sounds like heavy intermarrying took place as more Mongolians migrated southwards. Maybe in the Mongolian camp there would likewise be genetic indication for Han Chinese women intermarrying there.

[Andy Lau]

Among the Taishanese population, there is a mixture of looks, but the most common look is somewhat close to those with moderate to fair skin tone with a wide face. I think this is common throughout Southern Han Chinese ?

Edited by Andy Lau, 02 September 2010 - 11:43 PM.

[mrclub]

Andy Lau, generally how tall and how big the body size of Taishanese people are ?

[Andy Lau]

Andy Lau, generally how tall and how big the body size of Taishanese people are ?

For men's height for example, they generally tend to be around 5ft9 and most Taishanese men have wide shoulders, like white men. My dad is 5ft9, but i am 5ft7 unfortunately >.<. But i think for most southern han chinese, they tend to be around 5ft9, but as you go further north.. of course the height increases. Except Mongolians tend to be short in height.

Edited by Andy Lau, 03 September 2010 - 02:14 AM.

[mrclub]

For men's height for example, they generally tend to be around 5ft9 and most Taishanese men have wide shoulders, like white men. My dad is 5ft9, but i am 5ft7 unfortunately >.<. But i think for most southern han chinese, they tend to be around 5ft9, but as you go further north.. of course the height increases. Except Mongolians tend to be short in height.

5 feet 9 = around 175cm. Yes, I think you are correct though. Southern Han is around this height. Lets wait for General_Zhaoyun who went to Southern China before. Maybe he can elaborate more...

I am 5 feet 5, so I am considered under-average ?

[TiYiJian]

Actually i find mongolians to be much bigger than the Hans, with rounder face and thinner eyes

[grassmudhorse]

I will definitely not say "Northerner" speak with same or similar dialect. For instance I am a Beijinger who has spent most days in school learning standard Mandarin. Take me to Mentougou district WITHIN Beijing is far enough for me to become entirely disconnected linguistically, with their Hebei dialect.

Some major northerner dialects, Beijing dialect (standard mandarin plus "old Beijing" accent which is quite different from standard), northeastern dialect (a slightly more comprehensible to mandarin speakers but hard to immitate one), Shanxi/Shaanxi dialect (not comprehensible, occasionally pick up a little bit of meaning), Henan dialect (not comprehensible), Shandong Dialect (hardly comprehensible). I have not included any official ethnic minority languages.

[mrclub]

I will definitely not say "Northerner" speak with same or similar dialect. For instance I am a Beijinger who has spent most days in school learning standard Mandarin. Take me to Mentougou district WITHIN Beijing is far enough for me to become entirely disconnected linguistically, with their Hebei dialect.

Some major northerner dialects, Beijing dialect (standard mandarin plus "old Beijing" accent which is quite different from standard), northeastern dialect (a slightly more comprehensible to mandarin speakers but hard to immitate one), Shanxi/Shaanxi dialect (not comprehensible, occasionally pick up a little bit of meaning), Henan dialect (not comprehensible), Shandong Dialect (hardly comprehensible). I have not included any official ethnic minority languages.

Shanxi/Shaanxi dialects I don't think belongs to Mandarin Chinese dialects.
Yes, there are still differences in between each variants of Mandarin Chinese dialects.

Here my block, there is one family from Sichuan. They speak their own Sichuan Dialect (part of Southwestern Mandarin). Barely comprehensible.
Anqing Dialect (part of Jianghuai Mandarin), to me it is also not very comprehensible.

[bloodmerchant]

The dialects of Shanxi tend to be a separate group of Chinese called Jin (晉語), with strong affinities to Mandarin, but with more 'ancient' properties (glottal stops in entering tone, which also occur in Jianghuai Mandarin, Wu, Gan and some Min Dong dialects).

[Andy Lau]

The dialects of Shanxi tend to be a separate group of Chinese called Jin (晉語), with strong affinities to Mandarin, but with more 'ancient' properties (glottal stops in entering tone, which also occur in Jianghuai Mandarin, Wu, Gan and some Min Dong dialects).

I read somewhere that the reason why Jin retains "ancient" properties, is because the region is isolated from change or outsiders due to the mountains that surrounds the province. One example is that in the Jin dialect, they say "Hai" for "Shoes" instead of Beijing Mandarin "Xie".

[qrasy]

Here my block, there is one family from Sichuan. They speak their own Sichuan Dialect (part of Southwestern Mandarin). Barely comprehensible.
Anqing Dialect (part of Jianghuai Mandarin), to me it is also not very comprehensible.

I tried to listen to Hefei (Jianghuai), most of the time unintelligible.
Liuzhou (Southwestern), unintelligible except for occasional simple words like "這個東西". When I investigated the pronunciations further, indeed it's significant enough to confuse other Mandarin speakers (e.g. having "au" when others have "ou"). Even a Sichuanese (another Southwestern) can only get ~20% at first.

And whereas Southern dialects are already divided into a few big branches, even inside the same linguistic branches there are also unintelligible dialects.
<- Yulin (classified as Yue), almost totally unintelligible to Hong Kong Cantonese. I think they might be even more different than Hainan vs Xiamen (though it's subjective).

I read somewhere that the reason why Jin retains "ancient" properties, is because the region is isolated from change or outsiders due to the mountains that surrounds the province. One example is that in the Jin dialect, they say "Hai" for "Shoes" instead of Beijing Mandarin "Xie".

Hai is only one example. And I think I've heard that even Sichuanese are not influenced by this "Xie".

And the blockade goes in both direction. Not only "Beijing strangeness" should "have difficult time" spreading to Jin area, but also "Jin strangeness" would be prevented to spread to Beijing area.

Edited by qrasy, 06 September 2010 - 03:20 PM.

[mrclub]

I tried to listen to Hefei (Jianghuai), most of the time unintelligible.
Liuzhou (Southwestern), unintelligible except for occasional simple words like "這個東西". When I investigated the pronunciations further, indeed it's significant enough to confuse other Mandarin speakers (e.g. having "au" when others have "ou"). Even a Sichuanese (another Southwestern) can only get ~20% at first.

Hefei Dialect. Only can guess out some words.


Liuzhou. No idea what is spoken here.

And whereas Southern dialects are already divided into a few big branches, even inside the same linguistic branches there are also unintelligible dialects.
<- Yulin (classified as Yue), almost totally unintelligible to Hong Kong Cantonese. I think they might be even more different than Hainan vs Xiamen (though it's subjective).

Hmm, it sounds strange to me. Somehow, it sounds like a mixture of some sort of Hainanese, Hakka and others. Don't really sound Cantonese to me.

[bloodmerchant]

To be honest here, both Southwestern Mandarin and Jianghuai Mandarin have strong Xiang and Wu substrates, respectively.

As much as I hate to admit it, I would think that Jianghuai Mandarin does indeed have a strong Wu substrate. Oddly enough, or maybe not odd, much of the pronunciation of Hefei dialect words are quite similar to the Wu dialects west of Suzhou/north of Shanghai. It could show that in the past, Wu dialects were spoken there indeed before they became heavily influenced by Northern Chinese. (And I've always wondered why some people from Jiangnan harbor such a distaste for people from North of the Yangtze aka Jiangbei, especially the Jianghuai Mandarin speakers? Since they are stereotyped to be stupid and such. As I've said before, the very term 江北人 is quite offensive to many Shanghainese.) And I would have to say the same for Southwestern Mandarin, in regards to its similarities to Xiang.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 06 September 2010 - 10:02 PM.

[Andy Lau]

I think the stereotype about Cantonese by Northern Chinese are just their own imaginary image that they created because of their assumption that because we are geographically the southern most province in china, they automatically assume we "should" look totally non-han, when actually Cantonese on average look like any other Han Chinese, except the only difference is the height.

If you look at this video of your average Taishanese for example, you will see they look Han: http://www.56.com/u7...TQ4NzA1MzA.html

Edited by Andy Lau, 15 September 2010 - 01:57 AM.