78 replies to this topic

[Andy Lau]

Also many famous Shanghainese Actresses comes from the Taishan area of Guangdong: (What is interesting is that they all married shanghainese guys)

Hu Die 胡蝶 - First Empress of Chinese Cinema





Chen Yunchang 陈云裳 - Third Empress of Chinese Cinema





Dan Dan Lee 李旦旦 - Shanghainese Actress & First Chinese Female Pilot







Why is it that many Taishanese Guangdong people end up being in Shanghai during the 1930s and 40s? Do these actresses have links with Lai Man-Wai (Father of HK cinema also of Taishanese/WiYi origin) ?

I think during the Kuomintang era in Mainland China, the 2 main Cantonese groups that had contacts and influence in Shanghai (the KMT's favorite city): were the Zhongshanese (thanks to Sun Zhongshan) and the Taishanese (thanks to Lai-Man Wai; has his own cinema company in Shanghai then moved to HK after civil war ended). What do you think?

What is interesting is that within the Kuomintang Party during the Chiang Kai Shek rule, there were alot of members who were from the Jiangnan region (Jiangsu & Zhejiang) and Guangdong region (mainly Zhongshan and Taishan). My grandmother has some Taishanese friends who come from Taiwan, which was odd for me to hear at first. There are many famous Taishanese who either were raised or born in Taiwan: Sky Wu 伍思凱 (a Taiwanese singer), Paul Chu 朱經武 (Chinese American Scientist), Wu Shih-Wen 伍世文 (Former Secretary of Defense of ROC), Wu Kezhen 伍克振 (Famous Air Pilot for the ROC), etc.

Edited by Andy Lau, 15 September 2010 - 02:19 AM.

[hunghey]

I think the stereotype about Cantonese by Northern Chinese are just their own imaginary image that they created because of their assumption that because we are geographically the southern most province in china, they automatically assume we "should" look totally non-han, when actually Cantonese on average look like any other Han Chinese, except the only difference is the height. If you look at this video of your average Taishanese for example, you will see they look Han: http://www.56.com/u7...TQ4NzA1MzA.html

all stereotypes have an element of truth to them. there is so much genetic variation within the Chinese Han population that it is not absurd at all to deduce that Han Chinese living in the South of China will have an overlap of genetic make-up with their South Eastern brethren due to ethnic-mixing, invasions, etc. and this can be reflected in their physical appearance too. the truth is that if you walk down a street in Guangdong you will find plenty of people who fit the "North Chinese" image - as well as, if not more, people who fit the "South Chinese" image due to the above reasons.

your attempt to create countless threads about "how Taishanese/South Chinese have North Chinese physical attributes, e.g. pale skin, high nose, etc." to defend the recognition that South Chinese are *pure Han Chinese* is having the exact opposite effect. human beings are all unique, we all have a different genetic make-up, and this variation within the human race is what is worth noting, respecting, and accepting. you do not have to keep trying to *prove* to the forum that Taishanese people are just like the Northern Han people in terms of physical attributes, because the simple fact is, whilst they do share similar attributes, there is a noticeable difference between North and South Chinese - and this has been proved countless times throughout the various threads on the genetic make-up of mainland China.

the fact that you keep on posting select videos with Taishanese people that happen to exhibit Northern Chinese physical features just smells of insecurity and the narrow-minded belief that the North is better than the South and it relates to what is what was once *pure* Han Chinese - it is also very shallow. get over it, seriously. you have posted so many threads about this issue, often drawing mundane and inconclusive connections between things, e.g.

Also many famous Shanghainese Actresses comes from the Taishan area of Guangdong: (What is interesting is that they all married shanghainese guys)

- that isn't interesting at all - the logical reason why they married Shanghainese men is because they were working in Shanghai, i.e. Shanghainese actresses, and so all the available men around them were most probably Shanghainese.

Edited by hunghey, 15 September 2010 - 06:52 AM.

[bloodmerchant]

I don't think it's a wise idea to claim that people are descendants of Northerners or whatever just to prove that they are true Han. I could hardly care less, what matter does it hold whether people are 'true Han' or not? We're still Chinese, and all Han Chinese share a common ancestry. And most people married people around the area in which they lived. So mixed regional marriage did happen, but much more common was marriage between people of the same ancestral home or a similar regional marriage.

And the fact of the matter is, there are no pure Huaxia left. Only Beidi or Nanman, and every modern Han has a mixed ancestry. All Han Chinese are 'true Han' in their own ways. (Of course except for western-worshipping Han Chinese)

Edited by bloodmerchant, 15 September 2010 - 09:44 AM.

[JohnD]

all stereotypes have an element of truth to them. there is so much genetic variation within the Chinese Han population that it is not absurd at all to deduce that Han Chinese living in the South of China will have an overlap of genetic make-up with their South Eastern brethren due to ethnic-mixing, invasions, etc. and this can be reflected in their physical appearance too. the truth is that if you walk down a street in Guangdong you will find plenty of people who fit the "North Chinese" image - as well as, if not more, people who fit the "South Chinese" image due to the above reasons.

your attempt to create countless threads about "how Taishanese/South Chinese have North Chinese physical attributes, e.g. pale skin, high nose, etc." to defend the recognition that South Chinese are *pure Han Chinese* is having the exact opposite effect. human beings are all unique, we all have a different genetic make-up, and this variation within the human race is what is worth noting, respecting, and accepting. you do not have to keep trying to *prove* to the forum that Taishanese people are just like the Northern Han people in terms of physical attributes, because the simple fact is, whilst they do share similar attributes, there is a noticeable difference between North and South Chinese - and this has been proved countless times throughout the various threads on the genetic make-up of mainland China.

the fact that you keep on posting select videos with Taishanese people that happen to exhibit Northern Chinese physical features just smells of insecurity and the narrow-minded belief that the North is better than the South and it relates to what is what was once *pure* Han Chinese - it is also very shallow. get over it, seriously. you have posted so many threads about this issue, often drawing mundane and inconclusive connections between things, e.g. - that isn't interesting at all - the logical reason why they married Shanghainese men is because they were working in Shanghai, i.e. Shanghainese actresses, and so all the available men around them were most probably Shanghainese.

I wanted to vote this post up, but the system said I had reached my daily vote quota, even though I haven't voted on a comment in months, so I'm just leaving this reply instead. I don't understand why so many people care so much about ethnicity. Preserving language and culture is one thing, but sometimes it gets excessive.

[bloodmerchant]

I wanted to vote this post up, but the system said I had reached my daily vote quota, even though I haven't voted on a comment in months, so I'm just leaving this reply instead. I don't understand why so many people care so much about ethnicity. Preserving language and culture is one thing, but sometimes it gets excessive.

I think it's more overtly concerned with facial features and whatnot. I mean, at least I don't go around and speak about my Ningbo/Zhoushan/Shanghai ancestry and make threads about how my people 'dominate' politics, literature, scientific research and such all the time. I mean, my people are quite close to the North, and we don't obsess over whether we're Northern Chinese, Pure Han or Baiyue descendants or not. (Not to draw this into a flame war, but many of my people look down on Northerners quite a lot, to the point of looking down on other Southerners north of the Yangtze. It's all just a case of pride.)

And I do seem ethnically aware, yes. To me being Han Chinese is about ethnicity, language and culture. And I do feel good being proud of it.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 15 September 2010 - 05:15 PM.

[mohistManiac]

This all historically stems from the Northern and Southern dynasties period. Toba/Tuoba peoples displaced a portion of northern folk population southwards. Ever since then the south has had an attitude that as immigrants from the north they ought to keep their political Chinese authority since they were not intermarried with people that had to be sinicized. An intellectual movement began in the south characterized by the development of prose meant to establish southern Chinese scholarship apart from their northern neighbor. It is a kind of chauvinism brought about by arrogance and insecurity. The Qin burned book and buried scholars because they were insecure about others passing on knowledge that was not in tune with Qin policies and they were arrogant that only Qin ideas ought survive the ages when in practice their chauvinism was brought to an end after Qin Shi Huang Di died. A recurring theme in Chinese political thought is the struggle to develop a local specialty which then makes those in control of the area stronger and more politically viable. Xia had ancestor worship, Shang had writing, Zhou had ceremonial rites and Confucianism, Qin had legalist reforms, Han had syncretism, Northern dynasties had heavy Buddhism, Southern dynasties had heavy prose, in the 21st century Taishanese look most Han, on and on it will go.

[TiYiJian]

Taishanese don't look Northen, and southerners are different from the northeners.
It's like saying Italians look like Danish. Of course there are a lot of Italians who have northen european features, but most of them are different....

[Andy Lau]

Taishanese don't look Northen, and southerners are different from the northeners.
It's like saying Italians look like Danish. Of course there are a lot of Italians who have northen european features, but most of them are different....

i'm not saying Taishanese look like northerners, i am saying Taishanese look like your average Han Chinese. The far north of China, tends to have some differences from the rest of the Han Chinese, particularly Dongbei and Inner Mongolia .. since there are intermixes between other northern ethnic minorities. Therefore there is no pure Han that exist in china.

But my point about showing many shanghainese of Taishan origin and the many Taishanese and Zhongshanese & Jiangnan people as members of the KMT, is to found out why is that. So my guess would be because there are contacts in the KMT: Chiang kai shek brought many intellects/business people from the Jiangnan region & Dr. Sun Zhongshan brought his contacts from Zhongshan city and Lai Man-wai brought his contacts from the Taishan/WuYi region ?

Edited by Andy Lau, 16 September 2010 - 12:07 PM.

[Andy Lau]

I found a video of a Kung Fu master named 余志偉 who's origins are from Taishan. He immigrated to Canada and went back to Taishan to open his own KungFu School. Does he look like Ma yingjeou? lol

At 1:50 of the video you can see local Taishanese parents talking about their children enrolled in his Kung Fu class.

Edited by Andy Lau, 03 October 2010 - 02:29 AM.

[vorbei]

To be honest here, both Southwestern Mandarin and Jianghuai Mandarin have strong Xiang and Wu substrates, respectively.

As much as I hate to admit it, I would think that Jianghuai Mandarin does indeed have a strong Wu substrate. Oddly enough, or maybe not odd, much of the pronunciation of Hefei dialect words are quite similar to the Wu dialects west of Suzhou/north of Shanghai. It could show that in the past, Wu dialects were spoken there indeed before they became heavily influenced by Northern Chinese. (And I've always wondered why some people from Jiangnan harbor such a distaste for people from North of the Yangtze aka Jiangbei, especially the Jianghuai Mandarin speakers? Since they are stereotyped to be stupid and such. As I've said before, the very term 江北人 is quite offensive to many Shanghainese.) And I would have to say the same for Southwestern Mandarin, in regards to its similarities to Xiang.

What? Southwestern mandarin and Jianghuai mandarin have strong Xiang and Wu substrates?
1. Only some regions like Jianghuai mandarin-Tairu subgroup(Taizhou to Nantong)has a strong Wu substrate.From history, Jianghuai mandarin have invaded Wu for ages.Place like Wuhu/芜湖,changed their language from Wu into Jianghuai mandarin after Taipin rebellion.
Tairu is an exception, because it has a lot of immigration from South of Yangtze River,including south Anhui.
Western Jianghuai mandarin has became official language during Ming dynasty.(Because 朱元璋 speak it).And it has strongly influenced modern time Beijingese/standard mandarin.That's why u feel Hefeinese has Wu substrates.Because both Northern Wu and West Jianghuai mandarin r quit closet to standard mandarin.
Eastern Jianghuai mandarin, including Tairu subgroup is even harder than cantonese(Well I mean Cantonese-Yuehai subgroup/粤语-粤海片）

2.At 1/3 shanghai downtown people were direct decendents from Jiangbei, like Jiang Zeming/Liu Xiang. This is not add up Anhui/Nanjing+Zhenjiang's jianghuai mandarin speakers.

3.Southwest mandarin were supposed to have Gan-hakka basis but not Xiang.

Edited by vorbei, 25 February 2011 - 11:38 AM.

[mariusj]

The Qin burned book and buried scholars because they were insecure about others passing on knowledge that was not in tune with Qin policies and they were arrogant that only Qin ideas ought survive the ages when in practice their chauvinism was brought to an end after Qin Shi Huang Di died.

Where did you get this idea from?

I don't think it's a wise idea to claim that people are descendants of Northerners or whatever just to prove that they are true Han. I could hardly care less, what matter does it hold whether people are 'true Han' or not? We're still Chinese, and all Han Chinese share a common ancestry. And most people married people around the area in which they lived. So mixed regional marriage did happen, but much more common was marriage between people of the same ancestral home or a similar regional marriage.

And the fact of the matter is, there are no pure Huaxia left. Only Beidi or Nanman, and every modern Han has a mixed ancestry. All Han Chinese are 'true Han' in their own ways. (Of course except for western-worshipping Han Chinese)

NO.

Chinese and 'Han' Chinese are not the same. Thus, while YOU may all be Chinese, it means NOTHING to whether or not you are Chinese, and it certainly shows nothing about your common ancestry. For that mattered, most of you probably DON'T share a common ancestry.

And why are the Western-worshiping Han Chinese not Han Chinese? How does action made one's ancestry moot? Are you then suggesting that Han is perhaps not an ethnic group, but rather a collective mentality? Or a combination of collective mentality and ancestry? That actually sounds very bad.

[mohistManiac]

Where did you get this idea from?

I think I heard Brightness say it before and some other technically knowledgeable posters but I also looked into it a bit. The Qin during that time like all the other states were somewhat racist towards each other due to the political outlooks that they had of each wanting to dominate the other's state and from this perspective they had to have the most "ability" and strategemical ideals which came from the shi noble class. If you were able to get a group of very knowledgeable shi that created very useful set of ideas this would have meant that your state was in the lead with regards of mastery of innerstate conditions and then you could possibly go on to dominance. Qin had acquired legalism and thought that was the way to go and would have need to destroy all other shi nobles that conflicted with the necessarily infallible ideas of Qin. I think it was the same even before the warring states like why bronzeware culture gradually shifted to lacquerware when bronzeware making skills were ultimately classified as being the most esoterical and grand of the handicraft skills and lacquerware was easier to acquire and make although the process took a lot longer due to the controlled manner it was made. This is because the north was associated with bronzeware but when the south became included in the empire and due to the fall of Qin things started shifting to popularization of the elite wares coming from the south.

[mariusj]

I think I heard Brightness say it before and some other technically knowledgeable posters but I also looked into it a bit. The Qin during that time like all the other states were somewhat racist towards each other due to the political outlooks that they had of each wanting to dominate the other's state and from this perspective they had to have the most "ability" and strategemical ideals which came from the shi noble class. If you were able to get a group of very knowledgeable shi that created very useful set of ideas this would have meant that your state was in the lead with regards of mastery of innerstate conditions and then you could possibly go on to dominance. Qin had acquired legalism and thought that was the way to go and would have need to destroy all other shi nobles that conflicted with the necessarily infallible ideas of Qin. I think it was the same even before the warring states like why bronzeware culture gradually shifted to lacquerware when bronzeware making skills were ultimately classified as being the most esoterical and grand of the handicraft skills and lacquerware was easier to acquire and make although the process took a lot longer due to the controlled manner it was made. This is because the north was associated with bronzeware but when the south became included in the empire and due to the fall of Qin things started shifting to popularization of the elite wares coming from the south.

So this is an assumption.

[mohistManiac]

So this is an assumption.

Yea so don't take it personally since all it is is an assumption, right?

[mariusj]

Yea so don't take it personally since all it is is an assumption, right?

No, I mean I wasn't sure if it came from some legal documents written by legalists at that time or it was a logical deduction.