78 replies to this topic

[mohistManiac]

No, I mean I wasn't sure if it came from some legal documents written by legalists at that time or it was a logical deduction.

I guess the legal documentation ought to have been from the warring states but not necessarily the legalists. I was searching for how the Qin managed to build the Epang palace and there was a quotation from one of the ministers saying or giving praise to the newly established buildings that dared the central states to call Qin barbarious when they managed to have buildings which would be the envy of every state.

[Andy Lau]

The fact is that there isn't much difference between North and Southern Han Chinese. Even when you compare to other Asian Ethnic groups like Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese.

But of course if you go more north of china, you will have some who might look manchu or mongolian (Inuit-looking) due to successful invasions of Northern China by Nomadic Tribes from the Mongolia/Manchuria/Siberia Regions, which caused large migration of people (Han Chinese) south into Southern China. Thus, also pushing ethnic minorites in southern china (ie Thai, Vietnamese, Hmong,..) into Southeast Asia.

Following are Taishanese People(Southern Han Chinese):

Edited by Andy Lau, 02 March 2011 - 01:56 AM.

[mariusj]

Thus, also pushing ethnic minorites in southern china (ie Thai, Vietnamese, Hmong,..) into Southeast Asia.

Where did you get this from?

[Andy Lau]

Where did you get this from?

About the Hmong:

The early history of the Hmong has proven difficult to trace. According to Ratliff, there is linguistic evidence to suggest that they have occupied the same areas of southern China for at least the past 2,000 years.

Conflict between Miao groups and newly arrived settlers increased during the 18th century under repressive economic and cultural reforms imposed by the Qing Dynasty. This led to armed conflict and large-scale migrations continuing into the late 19th century, the period during which most Hmong people emigrated to Southeast Asia.

Source: http://en.wikipedia...._people#History

About the Thai:

With the political and cultural pressures from the north, the Tai people migrated south where they met classical indianized civilizations of the Southeast Asia.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....nd_demographics

[bloodmerchant]

Thus, also pushing ethnic minorites in southern china (ie Thai, Vietnamese, Hmong,..) into Southeast Asia.

Really? The Vietnamese were never native to southern China, unless if you count modern day northern Vietnam as historical southern China. Tai people still exist in Southern China, such as the Zhuang and Dai people.

[mariusj]

About the Hmong:


Source: http://en.wikipedia...._people#History

About the Thai:


Source: http://en.wikipedia....nd_demographics

Then it is not the migration of northern Chinese that pushed natives further south. Most migration from North to South were already done at the time of Qing.

When you say things like 'Thus, also pushing ethnic minorites in southern china' you are implying the migrating northern ethnic Han Chinese displacing the southern natives, while in this case it was harsh rule that result the migration.

[bloodmerchant]

About the Hmong:
Source: http://en.wikipedia...._people#History

The presence of the Hmong in Southeast Asia came much later during the Qing dynasty, after the Qing put down revolts by the Miao. And the Hmong language is not that different than some Miao dialects spoken in China. Some Hmong still have managed to re-establish contact with their Miao relatives in China.

About the Thai:

Source: http://en.wikipedia....nd_demographics

Though the Thai, Lao, Shan (and some other Tai people) themselves came from somewhere in modern Yunnan, many of them left voluntarily to settle in SE Asia. Much of SW China still contains sizeable Tai-speaking populations, with the Zhuang being the largest. The migration of the Thai, Lao, Shan and other SW-Tai people were the result of cultural pressure between the Indosphere Khmer and the Sinosphere, not the result of migration from Northern China to the South.



The creation of the Kingdom of Dali by Duan Siping (an ethnic Bai), is probably the most probable hypothesis. The establishment of Mahayana Buddhism brought by Duan Siping in place of Theravada Buddhism caused many to leave. It also brought Nanzhao closer to the Sinosphere.

Tai-Kadai languages

Edited by bloodmerchant, 02 March 2011 - 04:58 PM.

[vorbei]

1.some linguists put hmong-mien under tai-kradai, which make sense, because from autosomal dna to physical, hunan Miao and Tong(kam) fall into the same cluster.
2.Till Ming dynasty, those miao tribes still had a lot of autonomy, they were like to live in their own kingdoms. But during Ming dynasty, government began to carry on 改土归流 policy, which caused several times war(Well, although all those miao leaders seems han origin). Some hokkien ppl brought back sweet patatos from SEA, which make it possible to live in hill regions. During earlier to mid Qing dynasty,government pushed a lot of han peasants to migrate to those hill regions which used to belong to hmong-mien/tai-kam/tibeto-burman tribes.Miao has several times rebellion and all failed, that's why they resided in SEA countries like lao/vietnam now.

3.Tai should origin in today's northwest vietnam/lao/myanmar's shan state/southern Yunnan. During Nanzhao kingdom's time,they seemed to be called ten tribes with black teeth.
http://a4.att.hudong...10645612137.jpg
Both Nanzhao and Dali was founded by some tibeto-burman tribes but with strong han influence. For example, the one overthrow Nanzhao is a ethnic han immigration from Sichuan, the founder of Dali was an immigration from 甘肃武威.

4.both Nanzhao and Dali believe in very mixed buddhism. It is like the combination of 3 buddhism "hinayana, mahayana,vajrayana"

[baibushe]

1.some linguists put hmong-mien under tai-kradai, which make sense, because from autosomal dna to physical, hunan Miao and Tong(kam) fall into the same cluster.

I just wanted to point out that you cannot always reliably correlate genetic information with linguistic grouping. Languages change far too readily for them to be completely associated with ancestry.

[baybal]

Stereotypes:

Northerner says: "Southerners eat wierd stuff"

Southerner says: "Northerners eat wierd stuff"...

[mohistManiac]

I just have some very general questions here about the Qin state before it went on to produce QSHD and the eventual takeover of China. What was it that the people of the seven states called themselves, people of the seven states? or something along the lines of a supraethnic like people of Zhou? Ok not so general anymore but yet I feel as though it is a general question that could be applied to a lot of things. Like if you take the Romans how did they find a solution to this same problem of labeling themselves which were either subjects to the state of Rome or some ethnic based identity? Going back to China it seemed Qin was in the west while other states that were "afraid" of it were to the east and so was there an east west divide in the past?

[bloodmerchant]

I just have some very general questions here about the Qin state before it went on to produce QSHD and the eventual takeover of China. What was it that the people of the seven states called themselves, people of the seven states? or something along the lines of a supraethnic like people of Zhou? Ok not so general anymore but yet I feel as though it is a general question that could be applied to a lot of things. Like if you take the Romans how did they find a solution to this same problem of labeling themselves which were either subjects to the state of Rome or some ethnic based identity? Going back to China it seemed Qin was in the west while other states that were "afraid" of it were to the east and so was there an east west divide in the past?

During the Spring and Autumn period as well as the Warring States period, whenever a state was conquered by another state, they would usually adopt surnames based on their former state. Makes sense in a way, since almost everyone in your village is related to each other and probably people from the next village a couple of meters away, especially if they shared the same sovereign ruler. So for example, when Zhao state was conquered by Qin, many people of Zhao adopted the surname Zhao. So I guess, in a sense, they considered themselves to be one people under different sovereigns.

As for the east and west divide? I guess so. Given the nature that Qin probably had access to mercenaries from the areas inhabited by 'western barbarians'.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 20 March 2011 - 05:09 AM.

[mohistManiac]

During the Spring and Autumn period as well as the Warring States period, whenever a state was conquered by another state, they would usually adopt surnames based on their former state. Makes sense in a way, since almost everyone in your village is related to each other and probably people from the next village a couple of meters away, especially if they shared the same sovereign ruler. So for example, when Zhao state was conquered by Qin, many people of Zhao adopted the surname Zhao. So I guess, in a sense, they considered themselves to be one people under different sovereigns.

As for the east and west divide? I guess so. Given the nature that Qin probably had access to mercenaries from the areas inhabited by 'western barbarians'.

You brought that up in the Han supremacism earlier in the other thread. Seems like any variety of peoples can make peace while still acknowledging heartfelt differences and at the same time continue to diversify through various linkages with the historical past. Still given that Qin was the front runner in taking over China it must have psychologically drawn up a border of alienation from those that would be taken over very quickly as they are the first line of defense (states bordering Qin) and from those that were demanded to help in the long run to escort the center states being assaulted by Qin on the western front. So it would be like 3 different groupings 1) Hegemon Qin, 2) Central States (Wei Lu Zhao Han), 3) Eastern States (Yan Qi Chu) What were the kinds of names that arose in calling these groups if there were these specific names since these 3 groups seem to correspond to the area of dominance with respect to the origins of predynastic Zhou (Qin), Xia (Central), Shang (Eastern). Talking more about in the sense of stereotype and names of alienation rather than the political process of choosing surnames. I imagine there could be stereotypes like such and such people of this category are much more reliant upon bureaucracy (Qin comes to mind) versus a less hierarchical and institutionalized system (Eastern states carrying the legacy of Shang). Same thing for Roman history although this thread is about Chinese what would their categories have been besides eastern and western empire.

Edited by mohistManiac, 20 March 2011 - 06:18 AM.

[vorbei]

I just have some very general questions here about the Qin state before it went on to produce QSHD and the eventual takeover of China. What was it that the people of the seven states called themselves, people of the seven states? or something along the lines of a supraethnic like people of Zhou? Ok not so general anymore but yet I feel as though it is a general question that could be applied to a lot of things. Like if you take the Romans how did they find a solution to this same problem of labeling themselves which were either subjects to the state of Rome or some ethnic based identity? Going back to China it seemed Qin was in the west while other states that were "afraid" of it were to the east and so was there an east west divide in the past?

There was an e/w divide in the past.E/W china were divided by modern time Taihang mountain.This kind division at least lasted to Tang dynasty.
And the left 6 kingdoms looked down upon/were afraid of Qin for a lot of reasons.
For example, the king of Qing were from relatively low class.
And zhou is supraethnic?Sorry but I do not know how your definition of "ethnic"?
All those kingdoms in warrior state labelled them as 夏. 夏 is hieroglyphic,which looks like a human being. According to 说文解字, it means 中国之人, middle kingdom's people or just chinese people.

During the Spring and Autumn period as well as the Warring States period, whenever a state was conquered by another state, they would usually adopt surnames based on their former state. Makes sense in a way, since almost everyone in your village is related to each other and probably people from the next village a couple of meters away, especially if they shared the same sovereign ruler. So for example, when Zhao state was conquered by Qin, many people of Zhao adopted the surname Zhao. So I guess, in a sense, they considered themselves to be one people under different sovereigns.
As for the east and west divide? I guess so. Given the nature that Qin probably had access to mercenaries from the areas inhabited by 'western barbarians'.

Source?
During the whole Zhou dynasty, people can be divided into 2 class:
国民--people living in the cities, or nobles+freeman--they do have their own clan.
野人--people living in the rural area, or peasants/slaves--they do not have their own clan.
This division didn't disappear till Han dynasty.

[mohistManiac]

There was an e/w divide in the past.E/W china were divided by modern time Taihang mountain.This kind division at least lasted to Tang dynasty.
And the left 6 kingdoms looked down upon/were afraid of Qin for a lot of reasons.
For example, the king of Qing were from relatively low class.
And zhou is supraethnic?Sorry but I do not know how your definition of "ethnic"?
All those kingdoms in warrior state labelled them as 夏. 夏 is hieroglyphic,which looks like a human being. According to 说文解字, it means 中国之人, middle kingdom's people or just chinese people.

Were the Zhou and Shang people derived from Xia or were they derived from elsewhere other than Xia? By Xia I think I am pointing to the areas which produced the elite clans which went on to create their Xia dynasty or Erlitou culture. I know I'm making broad assumptions here but I think what I'm trying to perceive is whether or not predynastic Zhou Xia and Shang were different peoples and had different cultures before they ended up getting collectivized under the same vassal/fiefdom/feudal/taxation system of Xia Shang and Zhou dynasties in that order. Well they may have been similar but there could still be differences which estranged them apart from each other to create their own elite clans.