78 replies to this topic

[bloodmerchant]

Source?
During the whole Zhou dynasty, people can be divided into 2 class:
国民--people living in the cities, or nobles+freeman--they do have their own clan.
野人--people living in the rural area, or peasants/slaves--they do not have their own clan.
This division didn't disappear till Han dynasty.

I mentioned that before. I said peasants who had no clan name or a lack of a surname earlier in another thread. Those who still had a surname (usually nobles) had no reason to change clan names when they switched different rulers. Learn to go around other threads and read them for once, especially since Mohistmaniac just mentioned it in this thread already. If you lack the patience for reading comprehension and English proficiency, then it's not my problem. For one thing, I don't like to regurgitate things that I've said before, unless if I forgot or feel that I have to mention them again.

Were the Zhou and Shang people derived from Xia or were they derived from elsewhere other than Xia? By Xia I think I am pointing to the areas which produced the elite clans which went on to create their Xia dynasty or Erlitou culture. I know I'm making broad assumptions here but I think what I'm trying to perceive is whether or not predynastic Zhou Xia and Shang were different peoples and had different cultures before they ended up getting collectivized under the same vassal/fiefdom/feudal/taxation system of Xia Shang and Zhou dynasties in that order. Well they may have been similar but there could still be differences which estranged them apart from each other to create their own elite clans.

Most 'historians' in China obviously have a penchant for associating myths and fairy tales to actual archaeology. Their claims are not as serious in the eyes of Western scholars. This is especially common amongst ethnic minority 'scholars' in China and nationalist 'scholars' from other Asian countries, especially Vietnam and South Korea. That isn't to say that Xia didn't exist. It may have existed, but we don't have any first-hand accounts from the Xia themselves, only second-hand accounts. The Zhou first appear as adversaries in the Shang oracle bones. Then after a while, they became allies. Then sometime around the fall of the Shang, they appear as enemies again. Erlitou may have been a representative of Xia dynasty, but no concrete proof as of yet. But what's interesting to note that Erligang culture (Early Shang) replaced Erlitou culture entirely due to stratigraphy. Speaking of oracle bones and Xia, the Xia were never mentioned in any of the Shang oracle bones. Now by this comment, I'm not implying that Xia didn't exist. Now keep in mind, Erlitou and Erligang are different Neolithic cultures. (Though I feel that I've said that before in the Xia Dynasty and Han Nationalism threads)

Edited by bloodmerchant, 20 March 2011 - 10:27 AM.

[mohistManiac]

Most historians in China obviously have a penchant for associating myths and fairy tales to actual archaeology. Their claims are not as serious in the eyes of Western scholars. This is especially common amongst ethnic minority 'scholars' and nationalist scholars from other Asian countries, especially Vietnam and South Korea. That isn't to say that Xia didn't exist. It may have existed, but we don't have any first-hand accounts from the Xia themselves, only second-hand accounts. The Zhou first appear as adversaries in the Shang oracle bones. Then after a while, they became allies. Then sometime around the fall of the Shang, they appear as enemies again. Erlitou may have been a representative of Xia dynasty, but no concrete proof as of yet. But what's interesting to note that Erligang culture (Early Shang) replaced Erlitou culture entirely due to stratigraphy. Speaking of oracle bones and Xia, the Xia were never mentioned in any of the Shang oracle bones. (Though I feel that I've said that before in the Xia Dynasty and Han Nationalism threads)

I know you said a lot but there seems to be something I'm not quite getting. If Xia did or didn't exist doesn't seem to be a very big problem in my view since we still have the Shang and Zhou to make reference to. You've also said that these two were allies and were enemies but in the manner of culture such as language and the arts and whatnot would they have been fairly similar or was it a point that they made themselves aware to promote separately and compete against? When one was the stronger like Shang before Zhou and then Zhou took over was it because they saw themselves as separate entities enough different that Zhou decided to rise and to release itself from Shang rule and proceeded to dominate or was Shang so backwards in its institutionalized forms that part of the transition to Zhou rule was due to a cultural shift to new institutions which the Zhou were priviledged enough to capitalize on. I'm looking for marked separation such as that found in neolithic Chinese cultures where you do see a clear separation. For instance Liangzhu culture made fairly little use of land expansion and used instead its cultural productions and trade to diffuse economic control into the landscape with perhaps political ambitions that make speculation into its role as a possible first Chinese dynasty while something far to the north in the Hongshan culture it seemed as though they used rites and religion to spread their influence. The way I read this is different ethnicities having distinctly different cultures.

[Mochi]

Northerners eat mostly wheat-based food. Dongbei cuisine generally does not have spicyness in their cuisine(from what my frd told me).
Southerners eat mostly rice-based and spicy (except Guangdong province).

It seems most Southern Chinese provinces eat Spciy like Hunan, Sichuan, Guizhou, Guangxi, Hubei, Jiangxi. But why Guangdong is the only Southern Chinese province that does not generally have spicyness in their food? Is it the fact that Guangdong produces alot of fruits, vegetable and have access to seafood that allows guangdong cuisine to stay softy lol ? Even Vietnamese and Thailand Cuisine has spicyness in their cuisine lol

Correction:
Southerners speak a Chinese dialect that is older than Mandarin, that was spoken by Dynasties before Ming.

The Spicy Cuisine is in the Southwest part of China while the Southern part of Chinese food is Cantonese which tends to be bland but also offers more vareties. By the way, Hunan food is awesome. I am half Hunanese

[bloodmerchant]

Heh, most 'outsiders' call my peoples' cuisine to be sweeter than others. Guess I can't blame them when my mother actually puts sugar when stir-frying, for example. She says it's to draw out more water from the vegetables when she put enough salt on it (so she doesn't want to make it more salty). She cooks with sugar quite a bit when she cooks savory dishes.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 25 April 2011 - 06:19 PM.