32 replies to this topic

[polar_zen]

Hey all:

I was curious if there was or is a Chinese equivalent to the Japanese art of kendo or the Korean art of Gumdo, perhaps "Jiandao"? It seems most Chinese martial arts are empty-handed or use weapons only in forms or as a supplement (like in Taijiquan), but no art that is centered strongly on the sword in the same depth as kendo. Anyone know if one exists?

[WuXiaHer0]

Hey all:

I was curious if there was or is a Chinese equivalent to the Japanese art of kendo or the Korean art of Gumdo, perhaps "Jiandao"? It seems most Chinese martial arts are empty-handed or use weapons only in forms or as a supplement (like in Taijiquan), but no art that is centered strongly on the sword in the same depth as kendo. Anyone know if one exists?

Japanese Kendo and Korean Gumdo only focus on one weapon - the sword.

In Chinese martial art,there are many weapons to learn...
There are "dao shu" 刀术 (sabre-play)，"jian shu" 剑术 (sword-play),"gun shu" 棍术 (staff-play),"qiang shu" 枪术 (spear-play) and many more like the three section staff,whips/flails and other outlandish weapons such as the double hooked swords,E Mei needles,rakes,antler blades,etc.

Normally,beginners will have to slowly master the empty handed forms first before moving on to using weapons,just like the Korean Gumdo where one has to learn forms "poomsae".It requires great effort and skill to learn using the weapons.

Practitioners of Taijiquan will have to learn taiji styles,including sword play "jian shu".For those who chose Nanquan 南拳 (southern fists),they will have to learn southern styles,including the staff and broadsword/sabre.
The staff and sabre plays can be seen performed by practitioners of the southern fists because the movements are quite rugged and powerful.

There are many martial arts school in China who teach different styles.Different styles involve a wide variety of weapons to learn,such as Wing Chun (many people thought it's just a martial art without weapons but it's not true.The staff and butterfly knives are used.)

In Wushu,fights are choreographed called "dui lian" 对练.These choreographed fights and styles are really impressive.Choreographed fights include bare handed performances,sabre plays,sword plays,etc.
Before moving on to choreographed fights,one has to learn how to wield a weapon.

Believe me,it took me three years to finish the empty handed movements before I cut myself with the sabre...

Here's a choreographed fight-sabre vs. spear

Edited by WuXiaHer0, 22 December 2009 - 09:01 AM.

[polar_zen]

So I guess that's a no?

[WuXiaHer0]

So I guess that's a no?

Gee,Chinese martial arts are "weapons-based",not just "sword-based".
Wushu is more like a "package".You can't learn the weapons until you have learn the forms (empty handed ones).

For example:

Southern Fists practitioners:
1.Broadsword/Sabre
2.Staff

Long Fists practitioners:
1. Long Staff
2. Broadsword (Dao)
3. Straight Sword (Jian)
4. Spear
5. Chain/Nine Section Whip
6. Dragon Phoenix Sword
7. Umbrella
8. Double Sword
9. Double Broadsword
10. Pudao
11. Meteor Hammer

Tajiquan practitioners:
1. Straight sword
2. Broadsword
3. Staff
4. Spear
5. Pudao
6. Halberd
7. Rope dart
8. Three section staff
9. Whips

Still feeling blur?

[polar_zen]

I was never confused to begin with. I understand there are Chinese martial arts that use multiple weapons such as the ones you've provided, but it seems there are none based on one singe-weapon. It seems like basic economics that the more weapons (on top of empty hand) you train in, the less proficient you'll be in each one. Also, do most Chinese martial arts schools free spar with weapons? I know so much of kendo focuses on sparring. Most weapon-work in, say, Taijiquan is just acrobatics and choreographed gymnastics with very little martial application. Oh well.

[mohistManiac]

I was never confused to begin with. I understand there are Chinese martial arts that use multiple weapons such as the ones you've provided, but it seems there are none based on one singe-weapon. It seems like basic economics that the more weapons (on top of empty hand) you train in, the less proficient you'll be in each one. Also, do most Chinese martial arts schools free spar with weapons? I know so much of kendo focuses on sparring. Most weapon-work in, say, Taijiquan is just acrobatics and choreographed gymnastics with very little martial application. Oh well.

I thought there was a training for fist martial arts like taiji chuan and training for sword martial arts like taiji jian? The thing with kendo in Japan is that it is linked to a warrior's tradition like bushido blade and all that. I heard the people using swords back in the day in China were officials and literati so there you are another huge difference.

[WuXiaHer0]

I was never confused to begin with. I understand there are Chinese martial arts that use multiple weapons such as the ones you've provided, but it seems there are none based on one singe-weapon. It seems like basic economics that the more weapons (on top of empty hand) you train in, the less proficient you'll be in each one.

Well,not really.I know that the practitioners are kinda like "Jack of all trades,master of none" but they went through intensive training to use each weapons.Let's just say if you're still not skillful in using the broadsword,you can't continue using the others.Is it possible they will be less proficient in each weapons?

Ancient China was really a dangerous place at that time.Robbers will spring up from nowhere and rob you.It's really efficient for one person to learn more than one weapon.

For example,a skilled swordsman without his sword can be a skilled person wielding a staff or whips when he faces danger.
In ancient China (I've forgotten which dynasty),commoners were not allowed to carry weapons into some places.
Farming tools can be used.An innocent looking rake can be deadly when wielded by an expert.
The conclusion is,learning multiple choices of weapons could give you the upper-hand.Besides,each weapon a person yields has flaws.

For example:
Swords - good for shorter range attacks but too short for long range attacks... (staff,spear,whips and flails come in handy)
Flails and whips - the user will be an disadvantage at a confined space... (bare hands,daggers or swords will do)
Staff - doesn't fare well when your enemy is holding a big broadsword
Spear - also not handy in closed spaces...
Bare hands - handy in some situations but can be a real pain in the a** too (swollen knuckles or risk getting your hands chopped off)...

Also,IF the practitioner wishes,he can forever focus on one weapon after he completed everything,although this is not encouraged.

Also, do most Chinese martial arts schools free spar with weapons? I know so much of kendo focuses on sparring. Most weapon-work in, say, Taijiquan is just acrobatics and choreographed gymnastics with very little martial application. Oh well.

Nope.Weapons used in contemporary Wushu are too flabby.Real weapons are too dangerous to use although some weapons can be made blunt at the sharp edges but the moves are fatal like a stab to the face.(a scene of this move was shown in the video I posted)Practitioners may overexert their strength,either breaking the weapons or the safety guards.It's not so wise to use the weapons for sparring after all.

Traditional styles are some what dangerous when applied in real life combat such as the thrusting palm(used to thrust into an enemy's throat).We're in the 21st century now.Guns,cannons and howitzers have replaced every ancient weapons and martial arts.So most modern styles are developed into more stylish or subtle just for performances and exercise.

[WuXiaHer0]

I thought there was a training for fist martial arts like taiji chuan and training for sword martial arts like taiji jian?

Yes but one must learn everything.You can't just learn Taiji Jian straight away like that.As I said before,one must master the bare handed ones first.You know,learn the basics?

I heard the people using swords back in the day in China were officials and literati so there you are another huge difference.

Quite true on the contrary.Carrying swords was a sign to show one's status at that time but that will be totally useless and shameful if he doesn't even know how to use them,right?

[polar_zen]

Nope.Weapons used in contemporary Wushu are too flabby.Real weapons are too dangerous to use although some weapons can be made blunt at the sharp edges but the moves are fatal like a stab to the face.(a scene of this move was shown in the video I posted)Practitioners may overexert their strength,either breaking the weapons or the safety guards.It's not so wise to use the weapons for sparring after all.

Err...I don't know if you know this but sparring and live training is still a very regular part of kendo training and other sword schools in Japan and the U.S., they just wear armor and use shinai or bokken instead of actual swords.

Traditional styles are some what dangerous when applied in real life combat such as the thrusting palm(used to thrust into an enemy's throat).We're in the 21st century now.Guns,cannons and howitzers have replaced every ancient weapons and martial arts.So most modern styles are developed into more stylish or subtle just for performances and exercise.

ANY martial art, regardless of whether its traditional or not is at least somewhat dangerous when applied to real life. It's called a martial art. Also, talking about canons and heavy artillery is relevant to military training, but not to self-defense, especially in countries where having guns is illegal or not common. It's good to have some way of defending yourself. I still see relevance here in the U.S. where many people own guns. I train in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and the things they teach us are practical to everyday physical encounters that one might have, AND we do regular sparring where breaking bones/pulling joints is a regular possibility.

If you want exercise and performance then just be a gymnast or go jogging, but don't lie and call it 武術. I would say in this day and age boxing is more of a martial art than many schools of kung fu/wushu, but this is getting off topic. I didn't mean for this to derail into a discussion about the practicality of kungfu. My question has been answered, thank you.

[WuXiaHer0]

Err...I don't know if you know this but sparring and live training is still a very regular part of kendo training and other sword schools in Japan and the U.S., they just wear armor and use shinai or bokken instead of actual swords.

Yeah,I know about it.Practitioners of Kendo use bamboo katanas for sparring.

Also, talking about canons and heavy artillery is relevant to military training, but not to self-defense, especially in countries where having guns is illegal or not common. It's good to have some way of defending yourself.

Geez,who care's whether it's illegal or not.People could smuggle them in and out under everybody's noses without causing much suspicion.A country may be totally way off limits for guns but that doesn't mean it is totally free of getting shot.

If you want exercise and performance then just be a gymnast or go jogging, but don't lie and call it 武術. I would say in this day and age boxing is more of a martial art than many schools of kung fu/wushu, but this is getting off topic. I didn't mean for this to derail into a discussion about the practicality of kungfu. My question has been answered, thank you.

S’cuse me?Hold on there for a second,dude.Before we end this,I just want to correct that BIG mistake of yours...
LIE??I’m afraid the word “lie” is the WRONG word.
Don’t ever,EVER,underestimate this Chinese martial art before you fully understand the meaning of it.
It wouldn’t be called Wushu if it’s not a martial art,wouldn't it?

It served it’s purpose in the past as a self defense system and that's why it was called 武术.But to maintain the originality of it,the term Wushu is still used.
If you're talking about real kick-butt,bone breaking actions,that will be Sanda (Chinese Boxing) and Wing Chun.In Wing Chun,one can send an opponent into a daze with lightning fast punches.

Wushu is not something like jogging or doing gymnastics.It is a way of cultivating the inner sense,vital energy or life force and spirit.It's main function is self defense and cultivating "qi".Contemporary Wushu is just an art.Traditional ones are more towards strengthening one's body and self defense.Also,Sanda use grappling and kicking techniques too.It is taught in most schools teaching Wushu.

Principal strokes in different kinds of Chinese boxing such as the Monkey,Crane or Mantis include pushing,chopping,pulling,hooking,scooping,crushing,punching and slicing.

Seriously,one must learn such martial art to understand it.It cannot be explained simply just like that.

By learning Wushu,one knows how to defend himself NATURALLY.It's really not necessary for one to spar and breaking bones to show its effectiveness.That's not the true nature of Chinese martial art.

Exuding power and grace in its execution,it stands out in a class of its own from other fighting arts.

Edited by WuXiaHer0, 27 December 2009 - 12:41 AM.

[mohistManiac]

Yes but one must learn everything.You can't just learn Taiji Jian straight away like that.As I said before,one must master the bare handed ones first.You know,learn the basics?

Quite true on the contrary.Carrying swords was a sign to show one's status at that time but that will be totally useless and shameful if he doesn't even know how to use them,right?

I say, I may have to learn the alphabet before I use the keyboard to type but in terms of martial arts using a sword doesn't really connect with the fist if you get my meaning. I guess the taiji part is the part that connects them and comprises the basics to be learned, breath control, awareness and balance.

I don't think officials and literati would do much more with the swords than to carry the threat of lethality, but otherwise I think it's there to signify official business, something ceremonial, social or aesthetic. Maybe sword collecting was popular in ancient China for those able to afford all their swords. I think the concept of honor with knowing how to use a weapon goes hand in hand with a warrior's tradition like the samurai with the bushido blade, the knight in shining armor with the medieval longsword, the Mongol archer with the bow and arrow as family heirloom, the Spartan with a shield and brotherhood tradition. In such cases would carrying arms be defined as shameful due to lack of knowledge, rites, trust and discipline. China's more of a soldier tradition where serving is out of duty synonymous with necessity and allegiance is bought or won over. It isn't honorific in the same fashion as say a Japanese samurai is as good as dead when he is without a watchful master or a European knight must be knighted or a Mongol archer must be trained since 5 to ride horses or a Spartan warrior must serve until old age. I think it's due to the fact that wars fought in ancient China used people as a kind of soulless utility where rallying tens of thousands of troops for each battle was necessary, total war was waged on account of political enterprising, and everyone was replaceable. The closest thing to someone having martial arts prowess as well as honor within the historical framework of China is without a doubt the monk or priest but then again they don't really use standard issue militarized weapons nor are they prone to warfare.

Edited by mohistManiac, 28 December 2009 - 12:14 AM.

[WuXiaHer0]

I say, I may have to learn the alphabet before I use the keyboard to type but in terms of martial arts using a sword doesn't really connect with the fist if you get my meaning. I guess the taiji part is the part that connects them and comprises the basics to be learned, breath control, awareness and balance.

I don't think officials and literati would do much more with the swords than to carry the threat of lethality, but otherwise I think it's there to signify official business, something ceremonial, social or aesthetic. Maybe sword collecting was popular in ancient China for those able to afford all their swords. I think the concept of honor with knowing how to use a weapon goes hand in hand with a warrior's tradition like the samurai with the bushido blade, the knight in shining armor with the medieval longsword, the Mongol archer with the bow and arrow as family heirloom, the Spartan with a shield and brotherhood tradition. In such cases would carrying arms be defined as shameful due to lack of knowledge, rites, trust and discipline. China's more of a soldier tradition where serving is out of duty synonymous with necessity and allegiance is bought or won over. It isn't honorific in the same fashion as say a Japanese samurai is as good as dead when he is without a watchful master or a European knight must be knighted or a Mongol archer must be trained since 5 to ride horses or a Spartan warrior must serve until old age. I think it's due to the fact that wars fought in ancient China used people as a kind of soulless utility where rallying tens of thousands of troops for each battle was necessary, total war was waged on account of political enterprising, and everyone was replaceable. The closest thing to someone having martial arts prowess as well as honor within the historical framework of China is without a doubt the monk or priest but then again they don't really use standard issue militarized weapons nor are they prone to warfare.

True.Do you learn taiji?I don't but my senior does.She learnt taiji quan first before she moved on to taiji jian.But I guess wielding the sword is much difficult than using your fists.The basics are normally taught in taijiquan such as proper breathing,movement of the body,etc.,so I guess learning to use the fist first would be important.

[Cai]

S’cuse me?Hold on there for a second,dude.Before we end this,I just want to correct that BIG mistake of yours...
LIE??I’m afraid the word “lie” is the WRONG word.
Don’t ever,EVER,underestimate this Chinese martial art before you fully understand the meaning of it.
It wouldn’t be called Wushu if it’s not a martial art,wouldn't it?

If I'm not wrong, the cultural revolution destroyed most of the martial aspects of wushu and it was nationalised into a sport. I don't think its a "martial art".

It served it’s purpose in the past as a self defense system and that's why it was called 武术.But to maintain the originality of it,the term Wushu is still used.
If you're talking about real kick-butt,bone breaking actions,that will be Sanda (Chinese Boxing) and Wing Chun.In Wing Chun,one can send an opponent into a daze with lightning fast punches.

It did served its purpose in past... I would think the 'past' would refer to a time when wushu actually had its martial elements. With regards to Sanda... that is just "point fighting". You can win through Technical Knock Out but most people just go for point fighting. From what I've heard and known about Wing Chun, they never spar with people outside of its own school. How practical would that be?

Lets not forget characters like Bruce Lee who felt that Wing Chun was inadequate and that certain things like boxing might even be better and hence laid down philosophies for his own martial art "Jeet Kun Do" or JKD (if I didn't spelt it correctly).

Principal strokes in different kinds of Chinese boxing such as the Monkey,Crane or Mantis include pushing,chopping,pulling,hooking,scooping,crushing,punching and slicing.

Seriously,one must learn such martial art to understand it.It cannot be explained simply just like that.

If there is a 'science' to the martial art, it can be EASILY explained because it is logical and it is common-sense to do so. For instance, I can explain the principles of (Sport) fencing (with the Foil or Epee) on how to attack, defend as well as the basic concepts behind it.

Exuding power and grace in its execution,it stands out in a class of its own from other fighting arts.

As something extremely impractical.

Instead of thinking the world of just 'Chinese Martial Arts', I think it is better if you research on two-handed swordsmanships of varying cultures from Japanese to Chinese to European. They all embody very similar principles of striking, defending and postures. I believe this is because they are striving for efficiency, the basic mechanics of the human body, as well as the considerations of fighting with a 2 handed bladed weapon.

Even finding out on the martial arts of other cultures like Escrima (Philippines), Brazillian Jiu Jitsu (as the Inquirer here has stated), Different Schools of Karate (Kyo Kushin, Shotoryu, Okinawan etc.), Sambo, Systema etc etc etc.

You'll be amazed at the amount of similarities you find.

[WuXiaHer0]

If I'm not wrong, the cultural revolution destroyed most of the martial aspects of wushu and it was nationalised into a sport. I don't think its a "martial art".

You got a point there.This sport is based on martial art moves.It's not applicable for sparring but maybe a little for self defense.

It did served its purpose in past... I would think the 'past' would refer to a time when wushu actually had its martial elements. With regards to Sanda... that is just "point fighting". You can win through Technical Knock Out but most people just go for point fighting. From what I've heard and known about Wing Chun, they never spar with people outside of its own school. How practical would that be?

Lets not forget characters like Bruce Lee who felt that Wing Chun was inadequate and that certain things like boxing might even be better and hence laid down philosophies for his own martial art "Jeet Kun Do" or JKD (if I didn't spelt it correctly).

Sparring is not encouraged in every Chinese martial arts.The Chinese viewed martial arts are for self defense and strengthening one's body only.As Chinese martial arts slowly advances into the modern world,sparring emerges.(the sanda was first used by KMT soldiers)The notion of sparring with other schools have greatly violated the principles of traditional Chinese martial arts.

There are many ways to spell JKD.Both Jeet Kune Do and Jeet Kun Do are acceptable.

If there is a 'science' to the martial art, it can be EASILY explained because it is logical and it is common-sense to do so. For instance, I can explain the principles of (Sport) fencing (with the Foil or Epee) on how to attack, defend as well as the basic concepts behind it.

Fencing is not as complex as Chinese martial arts.
What I mean is,one must learn to grasp the true essence of it.
Explaining it is another thing.

As something extremely impractical.

Instead of thinking the world of just 'Chinese Martial Arts', I think it is better if you research on two-handed swordsmanships of varying cultures from Japanese to Chinese to European. They all embody very similar principles of striking, defending and postures. I believe this is because they are striving for efficiency, the basic mechanics of the human body, as well as the considerations of fighting with a 2 handed bladed weapon.

Even finding out on the martial arts of other cultures like Escrima (Philippines), Brazillian Jiu Jitsu (as the Inquirer here has stated), Different Schools of Karate (Kyo Kushin, Shotoryu, Okinawan etc.), Sambo, Systema etc etc etc.

You'll be amazed at the amount of similarities you find.

Exuding power and grace in its execution,it stands out in a class of its own from other fighting arts.

That is just a saying.

All martial arts aimed for efficiency of course.If not,it wouldn't be a martial art,would it?
All martial arts have similar ways of defending oneself.The only thing is,the inquirer just can't see it in Wushu.After the Cultural Revolution,Wushu is just a 'sport'.Gymnastics have replaced some parts of the martial aspects in Wushu,thus giving everyone the idea that Wushu is not a true martial art after all.

My point is,the perspective of the Chinese on martial arts is different from the others.
I'm not trying to press the point that Chinese martial arts are very 'superior',mind you.
Many people have wrong views regarding this martial art and I am merely correcting some mistakes from the inquirer.

I appreciate your opinions but this is going waaaaay off topic.

Edited by WuXiaHer0, 10 January 2010 - 10:42 PM.

[mohistManiac]

True.Do you learn taiji?I don't but my senior does.She learnt taiji quan first before she moved on to taiji jian.But I guess wielding the sword is much difficult than using your fists.The basics are normally taught in taijiquan such as proper breathing,movement of the body,etc.,so I guess learning to use the fist first would be important.

I used to learn a little here and there from my uncle who was a taiji quan master in Taiwan and has taught for free on all occasions to myself and others who wished to learn during weekends. He has more honor than many of those shaolin schools teachers that exist to cheat you of money.