13 replies to this topic

[Kimball]

There have been many threads on this topic, and I would be completely lost without the mountains of helpful information on this site. I'm outlining a civilization profile for a video game representation of the Han Chinese, and I need all the help I can get; history of eastern civilization is not my forte. Our goal is to be as historically accurate as possible while adhering to the game's limitations on how many units we have room for. You can read a lot more about the game at http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad. As a forewarning, I can almost guarantee that most of this information is either incorrect or incomplete as a result of my lack of knowledge of Chinese history. All I ask is that you point out inaccuracies, or point me in the right direction for some useful information. Also, if there are specific names of certain helmet styles or weapons, any information you can provide is immensely helpful.

INFANTRY

*Name: Dāo Fú Shǒu (刀斧手)
*Class: Infantry Swordsman
*Armament: Bronze Dao
*Appearance
-Garb
Basic: Red tunic with protective leather core
Advanced: Minimal leather lamellar cuirass - upper body and shoulders
Ultimate: Full-length lamellar cuirass
-Helmet
Basic: Iron-plated helmet
Advanced: Iron-plated helmet
Ultimate: Extends down over neck
-Shield
Basic: none
Advanced: Wood w/ metal core and rim
Ultimate: Wood w/ metal core and rim
*Garrison: 1
*Function: ?

*Name: Cháng Máo Bīng (长矛兵)
*Class: Infantry Spearman
*Armament: Qiang/Ji
*Appearance
-Garb
Basic: Red tunic w/ lamellar pectorale
Advanced: Lamellar cuirass
Ultimate: Heavy lamellar suit
-Helmet
Basic: Iron-plated helmet
Advanced: Montefortino helmet
Ultimate: Montefortino helmet with red plume
-Shield
Basic: Like this (name?)
Advanced: Like this (name?)
Ultimate: See above.
*Garrison: 1
*Function: Serves as a front line of defense. Primarily used to occupy opponents while ranged infantry rain projectiles from behind their lines.

*Name: Nú Shǒu (弩手)
*Class: Infantry Archer
*Armament
Basic: Compound Bow
Advanced: Compound Bow
Ultimate: Liánnǔ (Crossbow)
*Appearance
-Garb
Basic: Red tunic w/ white trim
Advanced: Red tunic w/ lamellar pectorale
Ultimate: Lamellar pectorale with protective leather core
-Helmet
Basic: none
Advanced: Leather cap
Ultimate: Leather cap
-Shield
Basic: none
Advanced: none
Ultimate: none
*Garrison: 1
*Function: Primary offensive unit. Used to eliminate advancing enemy infantry to prepare for a full-frontal assault.

CAVALRY

*Name: Qīng Jì (轻骑)
*Class: Cavalry Swordsman
*Armament: Bronze Jian
*Mount
Basic: Unarmored horse
Advanced: Minimal lamellar plating
Elite: Heavy lamellar armor
*Appearance
-Garb
Basic: Chainmail hauberk
Advanced: Lamellar cuirass over chainmail
Ultimate: Heavy lamellar suit w/ bronze pectorale
-Helmet
Basic: Like this (name?)
Advanced: Lamellar extension leaving face exposed
Ultimate: Lamellar helmet with red plume
-Shield
Basic: None
Advanced: None
Ultimate: None
*Garrison: 2
*Function: To overcome enemy's ranged threats.

*Name: Tú Qí (突骑)
*Class: Cavalry Spearman
*Armament: Qiāng
*Mount
Basic: Unarmored horse
Advanced: Minimal lamellar plating
Elite: Heavy lamellar armor
*Appearance
-Garb
Basic: Orange tunic
Advanced: White tunic with lamellar cuirass
Ultimate: Heavy lamellar suit
-Helmet
Basic: Lamellar helmet
Advanced: Lamellar helmet
Ultimate: Decorative lamellar helmet with red plume
-Shield
Basic: None
Advanced: None
Ultimate: None
*Garrison: 2
*Function: To overcome enemy's ranged threats.

*Name: Nǔ Qí (弩骑)
*Class: Cavalry Archer
*Armament: Crossbow
*Mount
Basic: Unarmored horse
Advanced: Minimal lamellar plating
Elite: Heavy lamellar armor
*Appearance
-Garb
Basic: Red/white tunic
Advanced: Lamellar pectorale
Ultimate: Lamellar cuirass
-Helmet
Basic: None
Advanced: Leather cover
Ultimate: Lamellar extension
-Shield
Basic: None
Advanced: None
Ultimate: None
*Garrison: 2
*Function: ?

NAVY

* Name: ?
* Class: War Junk.
* Appearance: Three-Four sails resembling window blinds (Sideways)
- Shell: Curved, possibly double-tiered
- Like this model: (http://www.laszloart...eJunkModel6.jpg)
* History: Developed in the Han Dynasty, Junks were used as fast transports for various purposes and are still in use today. Although it was referenced as early as the Han Dynasty, although substantial information of it's existence was not found until the Second Century A.D.
* Garrison: Can garrison a small amount of units.
* Function: These ships were designed as quick transports for units although they could be used for small attacks.
* Special: -

* Name: Lou Chuan (楼船)
* Class: Tower Ship
* Appearance: Large size with structure attached with one flag-like sail.
- Shell: four-tiered, 15 rows on each side.
- Like this diagram: (http://server2.uploa...ck-tangship.jpg)
* History: Meant to be a central vessel in the fleet, the lou chuan was equipped for boarding and attacking enemy vessels, as well as with siege weapons including traction trebuchets for ranged combat.
* Garrison: Large armies of troops can be garrisoned to be boated to other areas of the map.
* Function: These ships were designed to go fast so they could transport troops to the sights of battles. They had a single tier (level) of 25 oarsmen on each side, and were called Pentekontors.
* Special: Selectable by upgrade (I.e. Flame, Trebuchet, Additional rows).

* Name: ?
* Class: Fire Ship
* Appearance: Single canoe commandeered by a single person with large clump of dry sticks.
- Like this diagram: (http://server2.uploa...ack-hanship.jpg)
* History: The use of flaming boats by the Chinese was made famous by during The Battle Of The Red Cliffs where the general Huang Gai attacked the enemy navy with flaming canoes
* Garrison: Cannot.
* Function: The Fire Ships are used as kamikaze units, they are initially trained as one-manned canoes that can be set on fire which at that point they will increase speed and lose control, dealing instant destruction to enemy units on contact.
* Special: Incendiary attack.

BUILDINGS

==VILLAGE==

*Name: Shāng Yè Zhōng Xīn (商业中心)
*Class: Civic Centre
*Function: Main building of your civilization.

*Name: Cāng Fáng (仓房)
*Class: Storehouse
*Function: Main depository for collected resources, serves as a combination between the mill and Farm.

*Name: Fáng (房)
*Class: House
*Function: Allows living space for citizens and soldiers; houses built close to each other will generate economic bonuses.

*Name: Shuǐ Tián (水田)
*Class: Paddy Field
*Function: Serves as an alternative to the farm with faster food production.

*Name: Shòu Juàn (兽圈)
*Class: Corral
*Function: garrison for livestock, provides small income of food resources.

*Name: Yōng (墉)
*Class: City Wall
*Function: basic protection for your civilization, at it's highest upgrade the city wall is the strongest of it's class in the game.

*Name: Dū (闍)
*Class: Defensive Tower
*Function: A large defensive structure, it's larger size allows for a larger garrison of units.

==TOWN==

*Name: Bù (埗)
*Class: Dock
*Function: Main building for training naval units, also used as a trading and fishing building.

*Name: Yī Yuàn (医院)
*Class: Medical Center
*Function: Trains medical-based units and provides healing for Chinese and allies.

*Name: Jiù (厩)
*Class: Stable
*Function: Trains cavalry units and provides upgrades.

*Name: Bīng Yíng (兵营)
*Class: Infantry Barracks
*Function: Trains infantry units and provides upgrades.

*Name: Mào Fáng (贸房)
*Class: Trade Post
*Function: Economic building, provides a steady income of resources through caravans.

==CITY==

*Name: Zhǐ Huī Zhōng Xīn (指挥中心)
*Class: Government Centre
*Function: Provides tech upgrades for your economy/society using techniques from other cultures.

*Name: Miào Yǔ (庙宇)
*Class: Temple
*Function: Rather than providing healing, the Chinese temple serves as the civilization's special building and creates special units trained in the martial arts.

*Name: Chéng Bǎo (城堡)
*Class: Fortress
*Function: Trains special units and heroes in addition to being a tough defensive structure.

*Name: Wéi Chéng Yíng (围城营)
*Class: Siege Workshop
*Function: Trains and provides upgrades for siege weapons.

Thanks for reading. If you have any suggestions or corrections, please post them. Your contributions are greatly appreciated. Our goal is to preserve historical accuracy, so don't stop yourself from correcting anything because "it's good enough for a game".

Edited by Kimball, 09 January 2010 - 04:39 PM.

[Mei Houwang]

ChoKoNu have been done to death by the media, though it was rarely used in the Han dynasty (or any dynasty for that matter). I suggest replacing it with just "crossbow". Most soldiers(and even officers) wore some type of cap, I wouldn't call it a helmet. Here's a link to a picture of some Han terra cotta.

http://www.cultural-...e6dec6dec4d.jpg

http://history.cultu...82bd9124c8c.jpg

Personally it looks like leather, but because it's made of clay and painted on so I doubt we could ever draw a conclusion. However, I doubt it's an "iron plated helmet". Some soldiers do have iron helmets, though it is not of one piece but designed much like their lamellar armour. So I guess having "iron plated helmet" or "lamellar helmet" as an ultimate will do just fine.

I don't think there's any Han helmets that only leaves "small opening for eyes/nose". All helmets leave the face exposed.

Edited by Mei Houwang, 31 December 2009 - 05:23 PM.

[Kimball]

Thanks for your help. Very much appreciated.

Is there any name I can give to the cavalry spearman/archer? Are tunic colors specific to rank/unit?

[Mei Houwang]

Your welcome.

I don't think there's any unique name that they recorded for cavalry in general. Uniform color tended to be quite varied in Qin dynasty terra cotta soldiers, but for the Han dynasty the colors all seemed to be this orange, reddish color. The first picture I gave shows an officer who is wearing a green uniform, so that could be an exception.

[Kimball]

Thanks again. Perhaps I'll vary the colors somewhere between red and orange.

What would you recommend I name them then? It'd be odd to have all the cavalry share the same name. Any literal or even awkward translations will do just fine if nothing suits them well.

[Kimball]

I've updated the OP to include buildings and ships we intend to include. Again, any advice on how to improve or correct the current draft is greatly appreciated.

[Kimball]

I don't know how of much interest this is to the community, but I thought I might share that we've made quite a bit of progress in... wow almost a year to date - coincidental. You can see some of the mod's progress here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/rote

We have expanded our time frame to better adhere to the original game's spectrum: the beginning of the Warring States period to the end of the first Jin dynasty (~BC 475 - 420 AD), though the Han dynasty remains our focal time frame. Here is a link to the completed outline, though it is still subject to change given that it is in the interest of historical accuracy: http://wiki.sciondev...Design_Document



If anyone has any suggestions of course, please feel free to offer them: the project is still young enough for us to make corrections.

Edited by Kimball, 08 January 2011 - 06:13 AM.

[Yeleixingfeng]

商业中心 医院 指挥中心 is weird. In fact, 中心 is a direct translate of the English 'centre' - quite obviously it is new. I don't know if 商业中心 is a building or region, but since ancient buildings never exceed 2 stories it is quite impossible to form a commercial centre with just a double-story. If 商业中心 is a region, I suggest the word 都. As for 医院, 'hospital', ie. a bunch of doctors working together as a unit, was a concept recently introduced by the Westerners, and I doubt there to be any ancient near-equivalent. 医院 itself is contemporary. Again, what does 医院 represents? Is there only one doctor or many working together?

Honestly, I don't quite understand your list and your classifications. What does 'class' mean? And 'basic', 'ultimate', 'advanced'? I guess many of us don't reply because your list is quite tedious to comprehend.

And, care for some introduction? The game sounds really fun. Is it an online game? By the way, can I download it? Or will I be charged? Sounds interesting. >.<

Seriously, please fully use Traditional Chinese. Is your game in English or Chinese? If it is in English, you'd better use Lesser Seal, for it was the standard script then, to further enhance the feeling of ancient Chinese.

EDIT: I have no professional knowledge of the Han Dynasty, but there are many who do. To 'lure' them out you should post this in the Han Dynasty section too.

Edited by Yeleixingfeng, 08 January 2011 - 06:31 AM.

[Kimball]

Thanks for your reply. I don't speak a word of Chinese, so all of this is very helpful. The "class" and the various unit stages (basic, advanced, elite) are specific to the game. The class basically just tells you what type of unit it is (infantry swordsman, for example). The basic/advanced/elite are different stages through which a unit can upgrade by experience. If necessary, I can simplify the outline for those who do not need to know the specifics.

商业中心 has since been renamed to 城镇 中心 by one of the native speakers on the team. 医院 is essentially just a building from which a healer unit can be constructed. We may end up doing away with that building altogether. If you would be willing to help us translate some of our content to Lesser Seal to increase the accuracy/feeling of the project, we would be very appreciative.

As for the game itself, it is already available 100% free of charge here (open source; Windows, OSX and Linux): http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/

Our mod may be free, but it could potentially cost ~$2 US. This has not yet been decided. You may download a demo of our mod here, to be used with the game linked to above: http://www.moddb.com...nfantry-release

Edited by Kimball, 08 January 2011 - 06:44 AM.

[Yeleixingfeng]

I wonder, not to discontinue your enthusiasm, but why the motivation and interest in Chinese culture? Even Chinese ourselves don't value our history as much as you do. I am genuinely amazed, and grateful..

Personally, I am against the 中心. 城鎮 without 中心 carries the meaning as well - the native speaker should know this; though 都 still is better. 镇 meaning town came into usage not until Sung Dynasty, which is 960 years after 0 A.D. You did not answer my question, as to whether your civic centre is a building or a region. Either way, I think the character 都 suits best. 都 was used during Han Dynasty to mean the capital of a country, as seen when Cao Cao shifted the capital of China to XuChang (許昌), they called it 遷都許昌.

As for 医院, please allow me some time to research. I am inclined to suggest 藥堂 (hall of medicine), yet lacking of historical proof.

城堡(fortress) should be 城池. This, I am very certain. The term 城堡 appeared only during Qing, the last Dynasty.

As for 'Government Centre', 'Siege Workshop', 'trade post' and 'corral', I suspect they were not referred such during Han - definitely not the government centre. Could you elaborate a bit regarding these facilities? Because some of them might not even exist then, and you are free to name it yourself - appropriately. As for the fire ship, let me check up. As for War Junk, no idea what you are referring to. Is there no names attached where you copied the photos from?

Lesser Seal(小篆) is a font, like Times New Roman, historically used during Han Dynasty. It would be impractical to fully use Lesser Seal as your bracketed Chinese characters in explanations of each of your facilities and cavalries. I was referring to a more decorative sense, like perhaps announcements, letters, where Chinese characters appearing in the game serve as nothing more than for aesthetic purposes. But, if the game targets more of Westerners who have comparatively less knowledge of Chinese history and culture, I strongly insist Traditional Chinese instead of Simplified to be the Characters that appear in the brackets beside their English translation. This is because of many complicated reasons that I don't think you would want to understand, but as a whole Traditional Chinese carries more cultural sense than Simplified, which was created and implemented by the Communistic Chinese government.
Just so you know, Traditional Chinese was the font that followed the natural course of the evolution of the written script, fully formed during Tang Dynasty and has since changed little. The native speaker would know the difference; if everything Chinese-language related is under his control, and if he is a mainlander who fails to see the cultural superiority of Traditional Chinese, obviously I have no say and you need not follow my advice.

EDIT: 埗(dock) should be 埠. The former is a variant of the official character, which is the latter.

Edited by Yeleixingfeng, 08 January 2011 - 12:18 PM.

[qrasy]

For centers of administration other than the capital itself, I think something with "府" might be more appropriate.
(now it can mean building as in 總統府, and it can mean city as in 首府, and it can mean region as in 潮州府)

From Chinese wikipedia of "行政中心" I also see "治所" (government center). Apparently this term has been used since 漢書.

And copying from zdic again,

(1).即太医院。掌医药的官署。 隋 置太医署， 宋 改太医局， 元 改太医院， 明 清 因之。《再生缘》第二一回：“又召那，医院诸人跪奉觴。”

But then "太醫" itself apparently has existed since even before Han.
"診" or "醫療" apparently can be found, but not "診所" or "醫療所".
"太醫署" appeared in 魏書.

Corral:《說文》 牢,養牛馬圈也。
《說文》 養畜之閑也。 (a space to grow livestocks)
《說文》 廄,馬舍也。

Trading Post: 市《說文》買賣所之也 ("market" even though later it becomes "city"; apparently related to Vietnamese chợ)

Workshop: ??? ("車間" and "工場" are probably late inventions)

EDIT: 埗(dock) should be 埠. The former is a variant of the official character, which is the latter.

I only found "《正字通》同步。舶船埠頭。《通雅》埠頭，水瀕也。又籠貨物積販商泊之所。", which is strange.
For "步" I saw 《韓愈·孔戣墓誌》蕃舶至泊步，有下碇之稅。通作埠。今人呼船儈曰埠頭。埠音如步。" and "按吳楚閒謂浦爲步，語之訛耳" (but this means 瀕, "riverside" or "shallows")

For naval war I guess one can refer to 赤壁之戰? I don't have the classical Chinese version, though.

Warship - 船艦
Fire Ship - ?? (火船 is later)
Dock - ??
(? 津: ferry/crossing, a character originally written with both 舟 and 水, seemingly referring to a place where a ferry boat stops, but used more to mean things like 'a place to cross the river', or 'coast/bank' (though it would not refer to a building); later "津步(浦)" also appeared)
(compare Japanese, 入津 (n,vs) entering a port/harbor)

edit:
For "stone thrower/catapult", it should be "拋" (later changed to "砲" then even much later "炮" [thus conflicting with a type of cooking method]).
and from "礮" I saw "《後漢·袁紹傳》曹操發石車擊袁紹，軍中呼霹靂車。《註》卽今拋車。"
Probably it was called "發石車".

And for Ballista, I often see translations like "弩車".
("床弩" http://www.hudong.co...com/wiki/床弩 seems to be quite an old term, before getting replaced by "車弩")


Another copied translation (not necessarily ancient):
Swordsman = "刀兵"
Halberdier = "戟兵" (矛槍 both spear in English)

Barracks: （軍營） can be seen in the book of Later Han

(1).军队驻扎处。《后汉书·明帝纪》

and then "仓房" is definitely redundant as the first character (仓, traditional 倉) already suffices, and that the meaning of 房 was different...

(2) 古代堂中间叫正室,两旁的叫房 [side room]
房,室在傍者也。——《说文》

It's "side room" of a building, meaning not an entire building.
(so I'm also not sure if it's suitable for "house". There appeared to be a few other words for house/residence, like 宅室宮屋家, I don't know which term was most commonly used during Han)

In the other hand, 倉庫 appears to be used early

《国语·晋语九》：“从者曰：‘ 邯郸 之仓库实。’

Place to store food is 倉, place to store military vehicles is 庫.

贮藏粮食之处为仓，贮藏兵车之处为库。

Edited by qrasy, 08 January 2011 - 04:44 PM.

[Kimball]

I wonder, not to discontinue your enthusiasm, but why the motivation and interest in Chinese culture? Even Chinese ourselves don't value our history as much as you do. I am genuinely amazed, and grateful..

Because I am not from China, it's fascinating to me. Just as the Native Americans aren't all that interesting to me, because I grew up learning about them in school. Also, the game we're developing this civilization for currently has a strong bias for European civilization during the time period (Romans, Celts, Carthaginians, Iberians etc.). We feel as though including China (and perhaps other asian nations in the future, such as India or the Sarmatians) will help balance the game out a little bit.

You did not answer my question, as to whether your civic centre is a building or a region.

Ah, sorry about that. The Civic Center is a building.

As for 'Government Centre', 'Siege Workshop', 'trade post' and 'corral', I suspect they were not referred such during Han - definitely not the government centre. Could you elaborate a bit regarding these facilities? Because some of them might not even exist then, and you are free to name it yourself - appropriately. As for the fire ship, let me check up. As for War Junk, no idea what you are referring to. Is there no names attached where you copied the photos from?

The "Government Center" is much like a capitol building or a town hall from which the player will be able to research technologies related to alliances with other players/nations.

"Siege Workshop" - from which siege engines are trained, such as the ballista.

"Corral" - where cavalry units are trained from.

"Corral" - from here, the player can train animals to later be harvested for food (as a sort of currency).


We've since removed the 'War Junk' ship from our design documentation. You can find a much more current version here: http://wiki.sciondev...Design_Document

Thanks for your help guys, I'll refer the team to this thread so we can start implementing some of your suggestions!

Edited by Kimball, 26 January 2011 - 05:43 AM.

[Tanit]

Hey Kimball!

I feel the exact same way about lacking interest in American history, due to growing up with it. My primary focus is European and Near Eastern History, working for the Europa Barbarorum team, but I have begun to delve into Asian history of the same time frame (272BC-14AD) and find it fascinating. I have been trying to develop enough information on the side to hopefully encourage an expansion mod to EB2, after it is released, which will focus on the East from Persia to Japan in 272BC. Unfortunately, not knowing a word of Mandarin, Korean, Japanese, Indian, Vietnamese, Mongolian or a dozen other languages, has resulted in discovering only rudimentary information. My attempts at making a list of Sinitic (Chinese) units for such a prespective mod can be seen in the last two posts of this thread http://www.chinahist...ates-total-war/

[BlackHumour]

Hey, didn't read all of it, LOL, but erm..for the infantries..remove the shield of the spearman, and maybe you would want to change the spearman into wielding a dagger axe, a type of pike widely used back then.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Dagger_axe

Also, add a shield to the swordsman..a shield that look like a hoplon/aspis..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplon

Also, if you want the repeating crossbow, which i would love to see in a total war game too, change the settings to the three kingdom period or onwards.