2 replies to this topic

[danze]

I have learned a lot from these forums and have some questions I would like to post.

I have an interest in the tactics of the army of the Ming dynasty in the century before its fall to the Manchus, particularly in understanding the infantry formations and tactics used against the Japanese, Manchu, and Mongols. I know of the weisuo system and the size of the wei and its 5 battalions and their companies, but not the troops used and how they actually worked together in battle.

My starting point of reference is that European infantry battalions during this period were typically a mix of pikemen and “shot” (meaning firearms troops using arquebus or musket), the pikes used in a solid close formation and the shot shooting from the wings unless assaulted by cavalry. This was different from the middle ages in which missile troops and close combat troops generally operated in separate units. The civil wars of Japan similarly evolved use of alternating bodies of shot and yari (spear) infantry that seem to have behaved in a way somewhat similar to European shot and pike troops, though formations were not as tight.

I am very interested in how the Ming handled these same issues. I’m aware that Ming archers with bow or crossbow were commonly organized for field battles in mixed bodies with one rank or more of spear/dao men who could stand in front to oppose an enemy charge, and it seems that this continued as standard through the end of the dynasty. I can understand why the use of firearms and its hazards led to the Ming creating separate firearms battalions in the early 1400s, but did the use of troops with handguns/arquebus in separate formations rather than mixed formations change later?

My primary question is how this organization changed and how the Ming shot were used by the best front-line units in the 1500s and 1600s, both against enemy infantry and cavalry, and how the close combat troops worked to help protect the shot.

I am also interested in the proportion of shot in the Ming infantry, and whether the standard matchlock in general service by the Ming infantry changed significantly between 1540 or so and a hundred years later. My reading indicates that it was an arquebus and that it continued in use due to cost, logistical reasons, and the simplicity of its operation, and spending on improved gunpowder weapons focused on the artillery. I was wondering, however, if combat against the Japanese and Manchus may have prompted the Ming to spend the money in the early 1600s to adopt weapons similar to contemporary European-style muskets, at least for selected units.

Thank you for your kind attention.

[RollingWave]

I have learned a lot from these forums and have some questions I would like to post.

I have an interest in the tactics of the army of the Ming dynasty in the century before its fall to the Manchus, particularly in understanding the infantry formations and tactics used against the Japanese, Manchu, and Mongols. I know of the weisuo system and the size of the wei and its 5 battalions and their companies, but not the troops used and how they actually worked together in battle.

My starting point of reference is that European infantry battalions during this period were typically a mix of pikemen and “shot” (meaning firearms troops using arquebus or musket), the pikes used in a solid close formation and the shot shooting from the wings unless assaulted by cavalry. This was different from the middle ages in which missile troops and close combat troops generally operated in separate units. The civil wars of Japan similarly evolved use of alternating bodies of shot and yari (spear) infantry that seem to have behaved in a way somewhat similar to European shot and pike troops, though formations were not as tight.

I am very interested in how the Ming handled these same issues. I’m aware that Ming archers with bow or crossbow were commonly organized for field battles in mixed bodies with one rank or more of spear/dao men who could stand in front to oppose an enemy charge, and it seems that this continued as standard through the end of the dynasty. I can understand why the use of firearms and its hazards led to the Ming creating separate firearms battalions in the early 1400s, but did the use of troops with handguns/arquebus in separate formations rather than mixed formations change later?

My primary question is how this organization changed and how the Ming shot were used by the best front-line units in the 1500s and 1600s, both against enemy infantry and cavalry, and how the close combat troops worked to help protect the shot.

I am also interested in the proportion of shot in the Ming infantry, and whether the standard matchlock in general service by the Ming infantry changed significantly between 1540 or so and a hundred years later. My reading indicates that it was an arquebus and that it continued in use due to cost, logistical reasons, and the simplicity of its operation, and spending on improved gunpowder weapons focused on the artillery. I was wondering, however, if combat against the Japanese and Manchus may have prompted the Ming to spend the money in the early 1600s to adopt weapons similar to contemporary European-style muskets, at least for selected units.

Thank you for your kind attention.

Different situations require for different tactics.

The tactics against the "japanese" would depend on if you mean they were fighting the WoKo pirates or the actual fedual Japanese armies in the Imjin war. the situation was vastly different in those context. mostly because the former was mostly street fighting in the middle of your own settlements. which limited the use of practically all heavy equipments. (obviously, you can't fire a cannon on pirates robbing your village). or even large infantry formations. what Qi Ji Guang did was to develope a combine arms tactics.

essentially. they had a small team of 11 men as a squad, with 1 leader 2 shield men (they'll carry a saber and a some javelin too usually) 4 pole arm guys (usually their weapons are a iron rake and heavy uncut bamboo used to distract their opponent) and 4 more spearman.

it's your basic combine arms tactic really, the shield guys will try to protect the rest from arrows, and act as skirmishers., the pole arm guys will smash down on anyone that come close and the spears are used to keep enemies at a distances.


Against the Japanese armies though, they uses standard military tactics. but there wasn't actually that many field battles during the Imjin war. the Japanese were limited logistically by the time the Ming army arrived. and they simply couldn't send out armies that often. so most of the battles fought were seige wars.

the notable expection was probably the battle of 碧蹄館, where the Ming forces was chasing after the retreating Japanese army after they drove them out of PyongYang, and crashed into a large reinforcement force by accident. both sides were unprepared for the battle (the Ming general only brought his cavarly, they had to dismount due to the muddy terrain, reinforcement arrived in different waves during that battle) and the local terrian was also fairly unsuitable for large scale field battle. resulting in what was basically a messy brawl (where generals on both sides were basically fighting H2H) that ended inconclusively. it wasn't really as much of a serious field battle as a accidental large skrimish.


Against the Mongols, the Ming tactics in the field can generally be catgorized into either fight fire with fire or a moving fortress tactic. in the former they'll just challenge the Mongols with their own cavalries (though this is very rare. only on a few occasion did they attempt this), in the later, they lock their artilleries closely together in their carts to form a mobile fortress which prevents the mongols from chargin them. and they can just shoot with superior range weapons. but of course, the most common tactic of all was simply to just defend their fortress.

[amandann]

I have learned a lot from these forums and have some questions I would like to post.

I have an interest in the tactics of the army of the Ming dynasty in the century before its fall to the Manchus, particularly in understanding the infantry formations and tactics used against the Japanese, Manchu, and Mongols. I know of the weisuo system and the size of the wei and its 5 battalions and their companies, but not the troops used and how they actually worked together in battle.

My starting point of reference is that European infantry battalions during this period were typically a mix of pikemen and “shot” (meaning firearms troops using arquebus or musket), the pikes used in a solid close formation and the shot shooting from the wings unless assaulted by cavalry. This was different from the middle ages in which missile troops and close combat troops generally operated in separate units. The civil wars of Japan similarly evolved use of alternating bodies of shot and yari (spear) infantry that seem to have behaved in a way somewhat similar to European shot and pike troops, though formations were not as tight.

I am very interested in how the Ming handled these same issues. I’m aware that Ming archers with bow or crossbow were commonly organized for field battles in mixed bodies with one rank or more of spear/dao men who could stand in front to oppose an enemy charge, and it seems that this continued as standard through the end of the dynasty. I can understand why the use of firearms and its hazards led to the Ming creating separate firearms battalions in the early 1400s, but did the use of troops with handguns/arquebus in separate formations rather than mixed formations change later?

My primary question is how this organization changed and how the Ming shot were used by the best front-line units in the 1500s and 1600s, both against enemy infantry and cavalry, and how the close combat troops worked to help protect the shot.

I am also interested in the proportion of shot in the Ming infantry, and whether the standard matchlock in general service by the Ming infantry changed significantly between 1540 or so and a hundred years later. My reading indicates that it was an arquebus and that it continued in use due to cost, logistical reasons, and the simplicity of its operation, and spending on improved gunpowder weapons focused on the artillery. I was wondering, however, if combat against the Japanese and Manchus may have prompted the Ming to spend the money in the early 1600s to adopt weapons similar to contemporary European-style muskets, at least for selected units.

Thank you for your kind attention.

yeah,That's good.I agree with you.