135 replies to this topic

[kinkijon]

When I was in ChiangMai , I saw a lot of chinese looking people with fair skin. I guess these are the Tai-kadai people ?

In which cities are the Thai chinese concentrated in, other than bangkok ?

Chiang Mai is one of Thai's big provinces. It's considered as capital city of northern region. People who live here mostly come from 3 major origins. First group came from southern china's tai-kadai speaking people including those minor ethnic group, second came from southern china's han chinese when Mao won the war, and last one came from oversea chinese's. So the people you saw might be one of them.

Thai chineses are living in all provinces, mostly in downtown city area. Very small numbers are in outskirt area.

[katana300]

Photo of Zhuang

My link

the link doesn't work. but about the zhuang looks, it really depends. Some of them look SEA, some of them don't. Some even have small eyes like Hmong. Chinese government tend to put the fairiest and the most chinese-looking ones on screen.








Zhuang people in general look like Cantonese, and majority of Cantonese imo opinion look just like SEAns with smaller and slanted eyes.

[katana300]

If you want to talk about the TK in SEA, why don't you just talk about Lao people? They're like Thai but less mixed. They're purer TK than Thai.

[qrasy]

the link doesn't work. but about the zhuang looks, it really depends. Some of them look SEA, some of them don't. Some even have small eyes like Hmong. Chinese government tend to put the fairiest and the most chinese-looking ones on screen.
[...]
Zhuang people in general look like Cantonese, and majority of Cantonese imo opinion look just like SEAns with smaller and slanted eyes.

Again, that depends on what "SEA" mean here.
Remember that, to people who grow up in Malaysia and/or Indonesia, it most likely refers to Malays and close relatives, and definitely not including Southern Chinese. They almost never encounter 'intermediate peoples' (well, geographically speaking) like Viet and Thai so usually they have no problem with that view.

Even ignoring skin colour, Malays and Cantonese are still distinguishable.
Some mixed people can "look like Malay but fairer".

If you want to talk about the TK in SEA, why don't you just talk about Lao people? They're like Thai but less mixed. They're purer TK than Thai.

But then, the area was probably also homelands of Mon-Khmer peoples.
A figure here http://people.anu.ed.../languages.html shows a lot of Khmuic-speaking regions in Laos. "Flatlanders" possibly almost got totally assimilated by more recent Northern immigrants, though.

Edited by qrasy, 20 February 2010 - 08:02 PM.

[katana300]

Again, that depends on what "SEA" mean here.
Remember that, to people who grow up in Malaysia and/or Indonesia, it most likely refers to Malays and close relatives, and definitely not including Southern Chinese. They almost never encounter 'intermediate peoples' (well, geographically speaking) like Viet and Thai so usually they have no problem with that view.

Even ignoring skin colour, Malays and Cantonese are still distinguishable.

Yes Malay and Cantonese can't be mistaken. They're too different. But Malays in my view are "deep Southeast Asians" while the typical Southeast Asians are Viet, Thai, Lao, Burmese and some non-mixed Filipinos. Northeast Asians are Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mongolian. I guess Chinese to Mongolian would be like Viet to Malay. One is "far south" or "far north" and the other one is the more typical.

Yet from my experience I feel that even Cantonese look more "Southeast Asian" than average Viet. average Viet looks more like larger-eyed people from Taiwan - those who are probably aborigin-mixed.

But then, the area was probably also homelands of Mon-Khmer peoples.
A figure here http://people.anu.ed.../languages.html shows a lot of Khmuic-speaking regions in Laos. "Flatlanders" possibly almost got totally assimilated by more recent Northern immigrants, though.

If so then finding out what pure TK are supposed to look like is really fruitless since everyone is mixed.


anyhow, here's a picture of me and a Thai lady who greeted us as we stepped down the airplane at Bangkok airport. It's from my trip to Thailand 4 years ago. Majority of Thai looked similar to her.


I was only 15 back then =) The woman and the man in the back are my parents. They're not Thai.

Edited by katana300, 20 February 2010 - 08:33 PM.

[engsamnang]

Yes Malay and Cantonese can't be mistaken. They're too different. But Malays in my view are "deep Southeast Asians" while the typical Southeast Asians are Viet, Thai, Lao, Burmese and some non-mixed Filipinos. Northeast Asians are Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mongolian. I guess Chinese to Mongolian would be like Viet to Malay. One is "far south" or "far north" and the other one is the more typical.

Yet from my experience I feel that even Cantonese look more "Southeast Asian" than average Viet. average Viet looks more like larger-eyed people from Taiwan - those who are probably aborigin-mixed.



If so then finding out what pure TK are supposed to look like is really fruitless since everyone is mixed.


anyhow, here's a picture of me and a Thai lady who greeted us as we stepped down the airplane at Bangkok airport. It's from my trip to Thailand 4 years ago. Majority of Thai looked similar to her.


I was only 15 back then =) The woman and the man in the back are my parents. They're not Thai.

she somehow more cambodian mixed than thai kradai.

[xng]

anyhow, here's a picture of me and a Thai lady who greeted us as we stepped down the airplane at Bangkok airport. It's from my trip to Thailand 4 years ago. Majority of Thai looked similar to her.

I think most people are confused that Thai has only one ethnicity because the government promotes assimilation.
The Thai lady in the photo is most probably mon-khmer (ie. related to cambodians) in ethnicity.

The ones that I found a lot in Chiang Mai looks like the 'fair skinned boy in the photo' instead. I believe these are the Tai-kadai people. I wouldn't call him 'south east asian'.

Viet, Thai, Lao, Burmese are NOT ethnicity, they are nationality !

(Eg.The Karen people came down from near the Tibetan plateau and conquered the area called Myanmar today. The natives in Myanmar are the mon-khmer speaking people who are darker in skin color. The Karen people who came down from the Tibetan plateau has the same ancestors as the Tibetans (that's why they speak the burmese branch of the Sino-tibetan language family). I hardly would call them 'south east asian' unless you're saying Tibetans are also South East Asian.)

Pure filipinos (not mixed) have the same ancestors as the Indonesian malays ie. those you call 'deep south east asian'.

Anyway, this thread is about Thai chinese and not anthropology. Can you contribute more on Thai chinese ?

Edited by xng, 21 February 2010 - 10:56 AM.

[qrasy]

Yes Malay and Cantonese can't be mistaken. They're too different. But Malays in my view are "deep Southeast Asians" while the typical Southeast Asians are Viet, Thai, Lao, Burmese and some non-mixed Filipinos. Northeast Asians are Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Mongolian. I guess Chinese to Mongolian would be like Viet to Malay. One is "far south" or "far north" and the other one is the more typical.

Indeed, geographically it's true that Malays should be called "Far Southeast" Asians instead of simply "Southeast Asian" if "Asia" means the continent proper.
But if we are to list according to the countries... maybe we should compare whether Malaysia or Vietnam has more population.
Note, though, that the majority of Mongolian are still easily confusable with Chinese (by Chinese themselves).

As for Vietnamese, some "non-ignorable minority" is like "Malay of fair skin" but then I can't even be sure if they are Kinh.

Yet from my experience I feel that even Cantonese look more "Southeast Asian" than average Viet. average Viet looks more like larger-eyed people from Taiwan - those who are probably aborigin-mixed.

Indeed some Cantonese are even more "Southeast-Asian-like" than average Viet, though I'm not sure if it makes the majority or simply a "non-ignorable minority".
Many Viets are also at least as "Southeast-Asian-like" as those Cantonese people I described, though.

If so then finding out what pure TK are supposed to look like is really fruitless since everyone is mixed.

Indeed, but those in mountain areas in their original homelands probably has less mixture.
Lao's "ethnic Lao" is considered Lao Loum, btw, meaning "Lao of lowlands".

anyhow, here's a picture of me and a Thai lady who greeted us as we stepped down the airplane at Bangkok airport. It's from my trip to Thailand 4 years ago. Majority of Thai looked similar to her.

I don't know if you can call it "majority" as I've never been there myself. But if it is true, it's not a surprising thing as the area was dominated by Mon-Khmer-speaking people before the Thais came, and the Dais may have made the locals change their language.
Also, mixtures with Southern Indian can create that look as well.

The ones that I found a lot in Chiang Mai looks like the 'fair skinned boy in the photo' instead. I believe these are the Tai-kadai people. I wouldn't call him 'south east asian'.
[...]
I hardly would call them 'south east asian' unless you're saying Tibetans are also South East Asian.)

But then, there's a problem with this view. If the same line of thought is followed, the name "American" becomes "not very appropriate" for the majority of US and Canadian Citizens as they should be "European" while calling the natives as "American". (note that the time scale for the presence of Tai-Kadai in 'Southeast Asia' should be same or even longer than them)

Edited by qrasy, 23 February 2010 - 05:06 AM.

[xng]

I don't know if you can call it "majority" as I've never been there myself. But if it is true, it's not a surprising thing as the area was dominated by Mon-Khmer-speaking people before the Thais came, and the Dais may have made the locals change their language.
Also, mixtures with Southern Indian can create that look as well.

I have been to Thailand north, central and south.

The south (near the Malaysia border) are mostly malay in ethnicity.

Bangkok area seems to have almost equal number of fair skin and darker skin Thais. The darker skin people are the mon-khmer people (even though they may have forgotten their ancestry), the fair skin people are either chinese or tai-kadai or mixed.

ChiangMai (north thailand) seem to have majority fair skin people. I believe these are the tai-kadai people since the area is near to the chinese border ie. yunnan and gwangxi province.

Edited by xng, 23 February 2010 - 10:54 AM.

[katana300]

Indeed some Cantonese are even more "Southeast-Asian-like" than average Viet, though I'm not sure if it makes the majority or simply a "non-ignorable minority".
Many Viets are also at least as "Southeast-Asian-like" as those Cantonese people I described, though.

I said it just based on my experience. I can't count how many Cantonese I've met but only 2 or 3 of them look EA. One of them is a girl from HK but with Fujianese or Teochew origin. The rest all have a very Southeast Asian look. I don't know if I can take pictures of them to post up. Maybe there are more EA looking Cantonese in Guangzhou?

Indeed, but those in mountain areas in their original homelands probably has less mixture.
Lao's "ethnic Lao" is considered Lao Loum, btw, meaning "Lao of lowlands".

From what I know the people on Lao mountains are mostly Hmong. I might be wrong. Perhaps ethnic Tay and Nung from the mountains of Vietnam could be a good example. But then most of them look Viet (more Viet than Cantonese)

I don't know if you can call it "majority" as I've never been there myself. But if it is true, it's not a surprising thing as the area was dominated by Mon-Khmer-speaking people before the Thais came, and the Dais may have made the locals change their language.
Also, mixtures with Southern Indian can create that look as well.

I have been to Thailand north, central and south.

The south (near the Malaysia border) are mostly malay in ethnicity.

Bangkok area seems to have almost equal number of fair skin and darker skin Thais. The darker skin people are the mon-khmer people (even though they may have forgotten their ancestry), the fair skin people are either chinese or tai-kadai or mixed.

ChiangMai (north thailand) seem to have majority fair skin people. I believe these are the tai-kadai people since the area is near to the chinese border ie. yunnan and gwangxi province.

I think most people are confused that Thai has only one ethnicity because the government promotes assimilation.
The Thai lady in the photo is most probably mon-khmer (ie. related to cambodians) in ethnicity.

The ones that I found a lot in Chiang Mai looks like the 'fair skinned boy in the photo' instead. I believe these are the Tai-kadai people. I wouldn't call him 'south east asian'.

I think you guys judge people too much based on skin color. First of all imo that lady isn't that dark, she's only a bit darker than my tan-skinned mother.

In front: my mother and the Thai lady, in the back are my aunt and my cousin.

But ignoring their skin colors as I mentioned there are some skin color variation among the three regions just like in Vietnam, the facial features of that lady IMO look similar to the facial features of other Thai ladies. If she's light-skinned people may say she's TK.

pics of ladies from chiangmai





I dunno there aren't drastic differences in their facial features to me ~ similar face shape, similar nose, similar eyes.

They're not as different as in Vietnamese vs Malay

The ones that I found a lot in Chiang Mai looks like the 'fair skinned boy in the photo' instead. I believe these are the Tai-kadai people. I wouldn't call him 'south east asian'.

If my skin were darker, would I look SEA to u?


Ok here are two pictures of ethnic dai from china. In one pic, all the ladies have dark skin. In another pic, all the ladies have fair skinned. Would u think the fair-skinned ones look more pure TK while the dark-skinned ones aren't. They have similar facial features though.
Dai pic #1


Dai pic #2


Btw I found both pics on the first page of google when searched for "ethnic dai", so it's fair.
http://images.google...start=0&ndsp=18

[katana300]

My family took many pictures while in Thailand. Too bad we left most of them in VN, only brought those two to the US.

[qrasy]

I said it just based on my experience. I can't count how many Cantonese I've met but only 2 or 3 of them look EA. One of them is a girl from HK but with Fujianese or Teochew origin. The rest all have a very Southeast Asian look. I don't know if I can take pictures of them to post up. Maybe there are more EA looking Cantonese in Guangzhou?

I don't know what you are experiencing. But in many cases indeed Cantonese are confusable as people from the North part of Southeast Asia.

I think you guys judge people too much based on skin color. First of all imo that lady isn't that dark, she's only a bit darker than my tan-skinned mother.

Nope. For me it's not the skin. The eyes look to be quite different, and it appears to be quite influenced by South Indian.

If my skin were darker, would I look SEA to u?

My answer isn't based simply on skin though. Otherwise I won't even use the phrase 'fair-skinned Malay' anywhere.
And, darkened Southern Chinese still look Southern Chinese.

---

As I have mentioned, the thing is not about the skin.
It's more about Malaysians' and Indonesians' use of "SEA".
Remember that Malaysia and Indonesia are members of ASEAN, and they hardly ever see "Southeast Asians" other than Indonesian-like peoples in their countries.

Edited by qrasy, 27 February 2010 - 06:22 AM.

[qrasy]

[Ignore this post. I just found a bug with the forum software]

Edited by qrasy, 27 February 2010 - 02:37 PM.

[lifezard]

I don't know what you are experiencing. But in many cases indeed Cantonese are confusable as people from the North part of Southeast Asia.

Nope. For me it's not the skin. The eyes look to be quite different, and it appears to be quite influenced by South Indian.

My answer isn't based simply on skin though. Otherwise I won't even use the phrase 'fair-skinned Malay' anywhere.
And, darkened Southern Chinese still look Southern Chinese.

---

As I have mentioned, the thing is not about the skin.
It's more about Malaysians' and Indonesians' use of "SEA".
Remember that Malaysia and Indonesia are members of ASEAN, and they hardly ever see "Southeast Asians" other than Indonesian-like peoples in their countries.

I agree it is not wholly in skin colour... there are plenty of PRC chinese from mainland China here in Singapore that are as tanned as the average Malay here but you will still not find them looking like Malays.

however, I do think there are quite a number of us local chinese that will not look too different from a Malay if tanned.. personally i feel that this is why the local (southern) Chinese value fairness so much more than a northerner

Ok here are two pictures of ethnic dai from china. In one pic, all the ladies have dark skin. In another pic, all the ladies have fair skinned. Would u think the fair-skinned ones look more pure TK while the dark-skinned ones aren't. They have similar facial features though.

fair-skinned or not, the facial features in both dai pics still looks similar. i do think in general, the relatively more homonogenous Dai, Kam (Dong) or Sui people are still a much better representation of how the real Tai/Kradai people look than a ethnically mixed people like the Thais

[xng]

I agree it is not wholly in skin colour... there are plenty of PRC chinese from mainland China here in Singapore that are as tanned as the average Malay here but you will still not find them looking like Malays.

fair-skinned or not, the facial features in both dai pics still looks similar. i do think in general, the relatively more homonogenous Dai, Kam (Dong) or Sui people are still a much better representation of how the real Tai/Kradai people look than a ethnically mixed people like the Thais

I apologise for making myself unclear and not detailed enough.

What I mean by 'fair-skin' is the skin color at birth or if he has been an adult, he was not exposed extensively to the sun ie. he maintains his original skin color to a certain extent.

And I didn't say 'fair-skin only', the other feature that distinguish north east asian from south east asian is the shape of the eyes. North east asian eyes are generally long, oval in shape and rather flat with thin double eyelid (if any). Europeans are also 'fair-skin' but I don't classify them as north east asian.

I see a lot of fair-skin and oval shaped eyes in Chiangmai, I am not sure whether they are chinese or tai-kadai people.

No wonder the chinese are so easily assimilated in Thailand, not only are their looks identical but their religion is the same/similar.

Edited by xng, 04 March 2010 - 01:58 AM.