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What would China be like today if the KMT won the war


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#46 WuWei

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 02:33 AM

Honestly, these types of questions are totally meaningless as mainland China is not Taiwan and hence we would never know what the nationalists could have done in China. Taiwanese economic growth isn't just a miracle of the ROC; its economy started off better than those of China's thanks to Japanese administration and the dynamics of that growth under Japanese occupation has not halted since Taiwan never suffered serious damage from war. The KMT received a centrally administrated Taiwan from the Japanese while left a war torn mainland where centralized administration was largely absent to the communists.


I would say that Taiwan's economy starting out better than China's is a gross exaggeration and that economic growth in Taiwan in some regards occurred despite some of the initial actions of the KMT. As a colony of Japan, hundreds of thousands of Taiwanese were sent to fight during WWII and around 15% died. Japan did heavily build up Taiwan's industrial capacity for manufacturing (which exceeded Taiwan's agricultural output in 1939) and centered major naval yards on the island for their war effort. The importance of Taiwan to Japan's war economy (in terms of the agricultural production and war manufacturing) led to America's strategic targeting of the island - first by aircraft carrier planes and B-29 bombers followed by round the clock B-24 and B-25 bomber raids. In other words, Japanese-occupied Taiwan had the living daylights bombed out of it. After the KMT got control of the island in 1945 (and before the arrival of the central government in 1949), the situation in Taiwan went from bad to spiraling out of control. The KMT governor, Chen Yi, landed on Taiwan and started to monopolize entire industries, confiscate hundreds of businesses, and tens of thousands of private residences. The KMT straight-up looted much of the already scarce resources from Taiwan and instead shipped it to the mainland at inflated prices. KMT cronies and other opportunists from the mainland arrived on Taiwan and simply replaced scores of native islanders in their jobs while economic mismanagement caused the local economy to tank and the price of rice to inflate to 400 times its original value by 1947. In that same year, tensions on Taiwan erupted in a brutal massacre (now remembered as the "228 Incident") where KMT troops killed thousands of people (including both the Taiwanese and the Chinese newcomers, and in some cases completely at random) and completely liquidated the existing Taiwanese elite that had come to power during the Japanese colonial era. All of this had occurred prior to the KMT loss of the mainland. It was only after the 228 incident that the KMT was able to institute complete centralized control over the island's inhabitants, and this authoritarianism persisted for 40 years as the "White Terror."

Well said. It is worth noting that Chiang secretly shipped massive amount of gold, silver and foreign exchange from mainland to Taiwan at the end of the civil war. Chiang Ching-kuo, son of Chiang Kai-shek and president after his death, was said to have written in his diary: “if we have not had this gold in the early period of moving the government to Taiwan, it is unimaginable what would have happened. How would we have the stability of today?” (http://guanyu9.wordp...-from-the-reds/) Wouldn't that make one wonder how PRC managed to stablize and grow its economy, at a size many times bigger than Taiwan's, *without* the gold reserve that was stolen from them? What PRC has accomplished since 1949 is nothing short of a miracle in the human history, even dwarfing the so-called "Taiwan miracle".

I wouldn't say that the PRC's economic growth was so much of a "miracle" as it was out of complete and utter necessity. Mao and the communists inherited a people and an economy devastated by both WWII and a really destructive civil war. What happened under Mao's rule was nothing short of an attempt to totally destroy Chinese culture, traditions, institutions; pit sons against fathers, students against teachers, the young against the old; and keep the majority of the people confused in a destructively "revolutionary" state of mind while he engaged in power struggles behind the scenes. On a large scale, people were instructed to engage in such wealth-destroying actions as melting down their useful cooking implements or agricultural tools to produce completely worthless lumps of metal in order to goose production figures in order to "report" economic growth. The only thing that saved the PRC from a total utter collapse following Mao's death was the economic liberalization policy initiated by Deng Xiaoping. Only then did some people see an actual improvement in their living conditions. And who should really get the credit for the economic "miracle" we see today? It should not go to the officials in the PRC (since the outcome of the Cold War shows us what happens with massive governmental micromanaging). It should not fully go to Deng Xiaoping either (since the only viable option he really had was liberalization and to open China up to foreign investment). It should be the individual actors in the market economy, the Chinese people themselves, that get the credit, since their individual actions and preferences, which will always be too variable and complex for central planners to accurately gauge, are what have driven the real growth in China these last 40 years.

The same can be said for what people call the "Taiwan miracle." Both sides of the Taiwan strait were initially left with destroyed infrastructure and economies and had no other choice but to enact market liberalization reforms in order to move past devastation and grow their economies. The initial question of "What would China be like today if the KMT won the war" is meaningless. As far as I can tell, the only really significant difference between the development of China and Taiwan after 1949 is that Taiwan is almost 30 years ahead of China in terms of development due to the fact of Mao's disastrous rule while he was alive.

#47 hpyp

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 07:38 PM

As far as I can tell, the only really significant difference between the development of China and Taiwan after 1949 is that Taiwan is almost 30 years ahead of China in terms of development due to the fact of Mao's disastrous rule while he was alive.


Let me restate the facts I provided in my previous post in case you missed them:

1. An estimated four million taels of gold, plus silver and foreign exchange, were shipped from mainland to Taiwan by the end of the civil war;

2. Chiang Ching-kuo, son of Chiang Kai-shek and president after his death, wrote in his diary: “if we have not had this gold in the early period of moving the government to Taiwan, it is unimaginable what would have happened. How would we have the stability of today?”

You can read a detailed account of this "theft of the century" at http://guanyu9.wordp...from-the-reds/.

And let me add one more:

3. From 1950 to 1965, Taiwan received a total of $1.5 billion in economic aid and $2.4 billion in military aid from the United States. In 1965 all American aid ceased when Taiwan had established a solid financial base. (http://en.wikipedia....story_of_Taiwan) [Emphasis is mine.]

Do you dispute any of the above? If not, are you still going to insist that there was no significant difference between the development of mainland China and Taiwan after 1949?

#48 WuWei

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 11:11 PM

Let me restate the facts I provided in my previous post in case you missed them:

1. An estimated four million taels of gold, plus silver and foreign exchange, were shipped from mainland to Taiwan by the end of the civil war;

2. Chiang Ching-kuo, son of Chiang Kai-shek and president after his death, wrote in his diary: “if we have not had this gold in the early period of moving the government to Taiwan, it is unimaginable what would have happened. How would we have the stability of today?”

You can read a detailed account of this "theft of the century" at http://guanyu9.wordp...from-the-reds/.

And let me add one more:

3. From 1950 to 1965, Taiwan received a total of $1.5 billion in economic aid and $2.4 billion in military aid from the United States. In 1965 all American aid ceased when Taiwan had established a solid financial base. (http://en.wikipedia....story_of_Taiwan) [Emphasis is mine.]

Do you dispute any of the above? If not, are you still going to insist that there was no significant difference between the development of mainland China and Taiwan after 1949?


By and large, I do accept that all three of your points are true. I did read the link you provided, and it is interesting. However, the actual usefulness of the transported gold in building Taiwan's postwar economy is in dispute. You can find a refutation of the argument that the gold the KMT took helped jump-start economic development at the following link: http://michaelturton...-economic.html. I am usually skeptical of some of the viewpoints the author of that blog takes (since he is a vocal supporter of Taiwanese independence), but he does make citations from a number of sources. He basically argues that the total value of that gold was only enough to pay for a few year's worth of KMT soldiers' salaries and that the KMT's preoccupation with building and maintaining the military did little more than cause widespread inflation; he also makes the point that it was American aid and investments that initially kept the Taiwan-based ROC afloat. Incidentally, much of the impetus for American aid to Taiwan was a direct consequence of the PRC's intervention in the Korean War.

I still stand by my assertion that the economic development of both regimes across the Taiwan strait started from similar circumstances and eventually progressed in similar directions. Don't forget that American aid to Taiwan was mirrored by Soviet aid to the PRC (which itself felt secure enough to lend aid to both North Korea and Vietnam right from the start, followed by aid to a number of socialist nations in Africa and elsewhere). I am also pretty sure that had America not restrained CKS from launching an all-out war on the mainland during either the Korean War or the Cultural Revolution, Taiwan's economy would have been devastated to the comparable pre-Deng levels experienced on the mainland.

#49 ahxiang

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 11:34 PM

By and large, I do accept that all three of your points are true. I did read the link you provided, and it is interesting. However, the actual usefulness of the transported gold in building Taiwan's postwar economy is in dispute. You can find a refutation of the argument that the gold the KMT took helped jump-start economic development at the following link: http://michaelturton...-economic.html. I am usually skeptical of some of the viewpoints the author of that blog takes (since he is a vocal supporter of Taiwanese independence), but he does make citations from a number of sources. He basically argues that the total value of that gold was only enough to pay for a few year's worth of KMT soldiers' salaries and that the KMT's preoccupation with building and maintaining the military did little more than cause widespread inflation; he also makes the point that it was American aid and investments that initially kept the Taiwan-based ROC afloat. Incidentally, much of the impetus for American aid to Taiwan was a direct consequence of the PRC's intervention in the Korean War.

I still stand by my assertion that the economic development of both regimes across the Taiwan strait started from similar circumstances and eventually progressed in similar directions. Don't forget that American aid to Taiwan was mirrored by Soviet aid to the PRC (which itself felt secure enough to lend aid to both North Korea and Vietnam right from the start, followed by aid to a number of socialist nations in Africa and elsewhere). I am also pretty sure that had America not restrained CKS from launching an all-out war on the mainland during either the Korean War or the Cultural Revolution, Taiwan's economy would have been devastated to the comparable pre-Deng levels experienced on the mainland.



The "gold" matter had been widely discussed before. See my numbers from Zhou Hongtao's Diaries: http://www.republica...MoneyTrail.html

Someone summed up the discussions here:
http://www.booksfore...d.php?tid=66695

The other guy hypy's point was that the whole China's gold was stolen by Chiang, which was to belittle the accumulated wealth of China - a country with an imperial and dynastic history of 5000 years. According to Zhou Hongtao, the gold, foreign exchange and silver that were forced to surrender in the later days of KMT rule in China came mostly from the "supportive" city class of China. The non-supportive city class, so-called "diao min", would not do that. Mostly it was Zhou Hongtao, Chiang's secretary, and other government employees who surrendered their wealth for the new paper money - a scheme designed by the Comintern agent Ji Chaoting to bankrupt the R.O.C. economy. In the countryside, in the late 1940s, nobody was using the paper currency for trade any way, and it was mostly the copper coins in circulation in the countryside, and barter trades. In another world, R.O.C.'s economy, during WWII and during the civil war, was very peculiar. It was a very much segregated economy, countryside versus cities, and hinged on the actual locality of commodities and goods.

Communists' sabotage of the economy was widely recorded by the Americans and the U.N. rehabilitation agency staff. No matter dams, rivers, railways or whatever, they were all targets of destruction for the communists. It was called a total war, and scorched earth war. Gen Qiu Qingquan, while chasing communist armies across the central plains from 1947 to 1948, wrote half a dozen poems, each poem about his sad observation of the desolateness of towns and villages he passed through, all the result of the communist sabotage.

Back to governor Chen Yii and Taiwan. As I said in many threads, at the side of every prominent non-Whampoa lieange general and official, you would find a communist or a Soviet G.R.U. agent. The same was with Chen Yii. A communist was with him for 15 years around, acting as Chen Yii's counsel. Coupled with the fact that Yenan dispatched Taiwan-nativity long marchers to Taiwan in 1946, you had a picture of the communist scheme in instigating the 2/28 rebellion. And do not forget Li Denghui was once an underground communist, albeit reporting to the JCP as the Comintern rule decreed.
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#50 hpyp

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 10:34 AM

Don't forget that American aid to Taiwan was mirrored by Soviet aid to the PRC (which itself felt secure enough to lend aid to both North Korea and Vietnam right from the start, followed by aid to a number of socialist nations in Africa and elsewhere).



It might be worth starting a new thread discussing the economic developments in Taiwan and mainland China. Before I sign off on this thread, here are some figures that you might find interesting (source:中华人民共和国经济史1949-1999,Chap 4.3): Between 1950 and 1960 (when their relationship turned sour), Soviet's monetary aid to China were in the form of two loans (albeit at substantially low rate): a ~$.3B 10-year loan starting in 1950 and another worth .52B Rubles (or ~$.4B if we use the exchange rate set by USSR; a lot less at the black market rate). This is less than half of the US economic aid to Taiwan, which I assume was free giveaway instead of loans, in the absolute term, and almost peanut-like in the relative term. There was indeed highly valuable transfer of knowledge between the two countries (mostly from USSR to PRC understandably), but that is hard to quantify and I wouldn't be surprised if the same happened between Taiwan and US. Finally, I don't think it is a sign of security that PRC offered aid to other third-world countries during this time. In hard times, poor people can and do lend money to those in dire situations. And if you subtract the aid PRC gave from what she got, the net aid would be even less than we thought.

#51 Optimus

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 09:54 PM

Let me restate the facts I provided in my previous post in case you missed them:

1. An estimated four million taels of gold, plus silver and foreign exchange, were shipped from mainland to Taiwan by the end of the civil war;

2. Chiang Ching-kuo, son of Chiang Kai-shek and president after his death, wrote in his diary: “if we have not had this gold in the early period of moving the government to Taiwan, it is unimaginable what would have happened. How would we have the stability of today?”


The ROC govt recently declassified more gold records historical documents. think it was around 3.5 million taels that was shipped to Taiwan. one ship containing the gold apparently defected to the Chinese Communists. some gold were counted in at Shanghai but went missing, stolen? another few hundred taels of golds that were supposed to leave for Taiwan, stayed in China to pay for the remaining expenses of the Civil War. all these were deducted from the previous 4 million plus taels.

The gold reserves provided an important psychological boast to the economic stability of Taiwan, crucial in stabilizing the island's financial situation. The KMT govt told the Taiwanese that the govt was still rich, not bankrupt - 4 million taels of gold reserves, giving the peoples confidence in the New Taiwan Dollar. Important Taiwanese businessmen and local leaders were given a tour of the gold reserves to show it was for real and they would confirm what they seen in the papers. I don't think the gold reserves were actually sold to save Taiwan's dollar currency and to kick-start their economy later in 1960s.

Edited by Optimus, 03 July 2011 - 10:26 PM.


#52 redstick426

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 03:51 PM

One thing for sure, had the KMT still rule China, the civility of average mainland Chinese will be much higher than what is it now. Just compare an average Mainland Chinese to average Taiwanese Waishengren, you will see the picture.

The New Life movement called for by Chiang Kai Shek would be continuously implemented thru-out China.

You probably won't see many uncivilized, unruly behavior exhibited by average Mainland Chinese.
"Kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter". Quran 2:191

#53 Guaporense

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:22 PM

Let's see, if instead of tiny taiwan a capitalist chinese state of 500-600 million people were created then we would have today a new superpower. After a few decades north China would finally be absorbed by the economic powerhouse in the south, just like the case of East Germany.

And no, the Chinese communist party wasn't good for the Chinese economy. Today the part of Sinitic civilization that is inside communist governments are the poorest parts, the parts with democratic western governments are the richest. China is growing fast but that's because the country had the same rate of urbanization in 1980 as Europe had in the 17th century. In other words, China was still a pre-industrial economy in 1980, with over 80% of the population living in the countryside and over 70% of the labor force engaged in agriculture. They produced steel, yes, but nothing else. The Soviet Union produced a huge quantity of steel, more than the US or Japan produced by the early 80's, but the country remained poor and underdeveloped.

Edited by Guaporense, 09 August 2011 - 08:30 PM.


#54 mohistManiac

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 02:25 PM



Civilized or its opposite unruly behavior is but a social construction. Look at Taiwan and one of its hallmark attachments to "civility".

Edited by mohistManiac, 10 August 2011 - 02:25 PM.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.


#55 mohistManiac

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 02:01 PM



Yes the "civility" of Taiwan has even reached China.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.


#56 peger

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:21 PM

^Is that supposed to somehow make less of Taiwan's achievements? As if a novelty restaurant you find gross means successful implementation of democracy and first world wealth & living conditions are moot? Please.

#57 mohistManiac

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:48 PM

^Is that supposed to somehow make less of Taiwan's achievements? As if a novelty restaurant you find gross means successful implementation of democracy and first world wealth & living conditions are moot? Please.


Just to be clear though, I said it was "civilized" behavior from the pov of Taiwanese folks. If Taiwan has healthy living conditions that's not what I'm criticizing because you'll find that those are qualities trending towards universal goods. There is another thread about that and the main idea to that is you'd wish unlimited health for anyone that is sick. Everything else is pretty much judged pertaining to the perspective of whoever is looking at the situation. Eating out of a toilet looking container may not be literally gross but it can be socially constructed as uncivilized behavior.

Edited by mohistManiac, 16 August 2011 - 11:50 PM.

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.


#58 Dirt

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:38 AM

China's economy would have liberalized sooner under the KMT. Whether China would be a democracy today under the KMT is dubious to me.

#59 redstick426

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:51 PM

The general election of 1947 and 1948 national assembly and legislature seats (both chosen by popular vote) was a big steppingstone to democracy in Republic of China. Although it wasn't perfect in nature, it was the closest thing to democracy that Mainland China has ever experienced. If it wasn't for the communist Invasion, chance for democratic China is not a far-fetched.
"Kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter". Quran 2:191

#60 redstick426

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:54 PM

40 - 50 millions of souls would be saved from Great Leap Forward and Culture Revolution had ROC still maintained its regime in mainland China.
"Kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter". Quran 2:191




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