49 replies to this topic

[bloodmerchant]

I agree with you Bloodmerchant that Jiangnan people are hard to tell as they are mix of northern-han and southern-han. The first picture you put does look like your typical shanghainese boy. But in Zhejiang, the people generally look more "southern han", except Hangzhou, since i heard from my shanghainese friends that Hangzhou was a capital of Song, therefore brought more northern genes.

My parents both have northeastern Zhejiang ancestry (from Ningbo/Zhoushan), though my mother has more native Shanghainese (actually southern Jiangsu) ancestry. So they both have mostly southern Han features, with some Northern Han features. Some even have non-Chinese phenotypical features, my dad and one of my uncles have slightly wavy hair (they claim that it's because of their northern nomadic ancestry). But I came out phenotypically resembling more Northern Han than Southern Han (my family jokes that I was adopted or something). Yeah, Hangzhou does have a lot of northern chinese influence, especially in the language. I haven't met any Hangzhou people though. Generally, nearly all or most southern Han have ancestors from Northern China/Central Plains at some point. I just think it's a phenotypical adaptation to warmer climate.

[Andy Lau]

What is interesting about Hangzhou Wu is that they say "Ngo = Me" where as in Shanghainese some say "Ngu" others say "Wu"... but in Ningbo do they say "Ngo" or "Ngu" ? and is the "Ngo" that is pronounced by Hangzhou people an influence from Northerners of the Song Dynasty who set up their capital at Hangzhou ? if so, then "Ngu" must be the original pronounciation for Northern Wu dialects, while "Ngo" is an import from the Song Dynasty.

Edited by Andy Lau, 20 April 2010 - 12:17 AM.

[bloodmerchant]

What is interesting about Hangzhou Wu is that they say "Ngo = Me" where as in Shanghainese some say "Ngu" others say "Wu"... but in Ningbo do they say "Ngo" or "Ngu" ? and is the "Ngo" that is pronounced by Hangzhou people an influence from Northerners of the Song Dynasty who set up their capital at Hangzhou ? if so, then "Ngu" must be the original pronounciation for Northern Wu dialects, while "Ngo" is an import from the Song Dynasty.

Suzhou Wu pronounces it as 'ngou'. I think that 'ngo' is actually an Eastern/Northern Zhejiang pronunciation, including the Southern Wu variant Taizhou Wu. Huzhou, which is located in Northern Zhejiang uses the word 'ng'. As well as some parts of Jiading District in Shanghai.

The Changzhou-Suzhou transition zone (incl. Wuxi, Jiangyin, Liyang) pronounces it as 'ngou'. I think 'wu' may be a Mandarinized influence.

Much of old Songjiang prefecture (modern Shanghai) today, as well as far south as Quzhou (and maybe Jinhua and Lishui) in southern Zhejiang uses 'ngu'. Wenzhou dialect uses 'ng'.

So I'd think 'ng' and 'ngu' are older pronunciations. 'ngou' and 'ngo' are recent derivations.

To break it down:

'ng'- some parts of Shanghai, Huzhou, Quzhou, Wenzhou

'ngu'- most of Shanghai

'ngou'- Anywhere from Suzhou to Changzhou

'ngo'- Shaoxing+Ling'an/old Yuezhou Prefecture, Hangzhou, some parts of Shanghai, old Mingzhou prefecture (Ningbo + Zhoushan), Taizhou

'wu'- most often used by Shanghainese speakers- Mandarinized quick speech.

(For Jiaxing and Pinghu, I am not sure. My guess is either any of the four)

So any of these four pronunciations are scattered all over the place. But it does seem obvious that 'ngou' and 'ngo' cut through the 'ng' and 'ngu' speaking areas.

Note that 吾 can also be written as the first-person pronoun, as 'ngu' or 'ng', same as 我.

Another example would be the word 犬, an archaic word for dog.

It ranges from khioe (Taizhou), chioe (most Wu dialects), chioen (Shaoxing), chio (New Wuxi), chiu (wenzhou, some Ningbo) (But the general pronunciation is chioe)

But even then such pronunciations don't matter. Changzhou dialect and Suzhou dialect are hardly intelligible (though they pronounce the first-person singular in a similar manner), but Suzhou dialect is very intelligible to Shanghainese speakers (though they pronounce the first-person singular differently). Most Wu dialects are grouped by mutual intelligibility. For me, 'ngo, ngu, and ngou' are the same word, just pronounced slightly differently. I can understand that it's the first person singular.

So for me, the closest dialects I can understand are most dialects near Shanghai, Suzhou, and Jiaxing. I can understand them about 90-99% of the time, but I just have to get used to their pronunciation and words. Other Wu dialects range from the slightly harder (Ningbo and Wuxi) to the hardest (Wenzhou). Thing is, Ningbo people can understand what I'm saying, I just don't understand what they're saying sometimes. For Shanghainese speakers, it's hard to talk one-on-one with Ningbo speakers, but I can understand the general context of a conversation between two or more Ningbo speakers.

What's the factor of mutual intelligibility of Wu to me?

First priority is vocabulary and its use of vocabulary. I usually get stumped by Ningbo dialect because of their use of vocabulary. Pronunciation is fine though.
second is grammar, as well as expressions used.
third is probably pronunciation. It's easy for me to spot a Suzhou accent of a Ningbo accent. I can still understand them, depending on the dialect. Suzhou dialect sounds foppish to Shanghainese, but Ningbo dialect sounds rougher and coarse to Shanghainese.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 20 April 2010 - 02:30 AM.

[Andy Lau]

Wu is a very beautiful language to me, there was a girl in my school who says she is from Shanghai, but she says "shanghainese sounds ugly, mandarin is better", and when i said i spoke Cantonese, she was like "why you learn Cantonese, it's barbarian" i was like ***?! She hates her own local dialect (i wonder if she is even really shanghainese, i am guessing probably not - not sure) and says Cantonese (one of the most well preserved of Middle Chinese - Sui, Tang and Song dynasty language) is not a Han Chinese language, so awkward. I am sure she must originate from Northern China or something and not from any provinces in the South, not even Shanghai.

i wonder if Shanghainese can be a "putonghua" for the Jiangnan region.

[mrclub]

Wu is a very beautiful language to me, there was a girl in my school who says she is from Shanghai, but she says "shanghainese sounds ugly, mandarin is better", and when i said i spoke Cantonese, she was like "why you learn Cantonese, it's barbarian" i was like ***?! She hates her own local dialect (i wonder if she is even really shanghainese, i am guessing probably not - not sure) and says Cantonese (one of the most well preserved of Middle Chinese - Sui, Tang and Song dynasty language) is not a Han Chinese language, so awkward. I am sure she must originate from Northern China or something and not from any provinces in the South, not even Shanghai.

i wonder if Shanghainese can be a "putonghua" for the Jiangnan region.

Shanghainese usage is restricted to Shanghai and maybe neighbouring areas only.

That particular girl, don't need to bother her so much. She is just another one who has been brainwashed by China's Putonghua Promotion Exercise.

If Cantonese isn't a Han Chinese language, then I guess Min Chinese, Gan Chinese and whatever that sounds different from Mandarin Chinese dialects are simply all non-Han Chinese languages. This is the greatest joke I hear before.

[xng]

Wu is a very beautiful language to me, there was a girl in my school who says she is from Shanghai, but she says "shanghainese sounds

Any chinese language that northerners don't understand its history, they will say it is 'ugly' and 'non sinitic'. It is just like people who don't understand traditional chinese will say it is ugly writing.

[bloodmerchant]

I think the only Song Dynasty-era vocabulary in modern Wu Chinese is 落蘇 leh su, which means eggplant. Even though it's not often used today and is used interchangably with 茄子 ga tsy. I've heard my parents use the term 落蘇 before, I only found out that 落蘇 is actually a Song Dynasty-era word for 'eggplant' that Wu speakers still use today.

i wonder if Shanghainese can be a "putonghua" for the Jiangnan region.

Actually, it was prior to the mid-20th century.

previously it used to be Suzhou dialect, but was later supplanted by Shanghainese during the late 19th century, as mass numbers of rural people from Jiangnan (and from neighboring regions) moved to Shanghai.

Its influence can still be felt as even many Wu-speakers can understand Shanghainese (to some degree, even for Wenzhou dialect speakers), even if they don't speak it.

Wu is a very beautiful language to me, there was a girl in my school who says she is from Shanghai, but she says "shanghainese sounds ugly, mandarin is better", and when i said i spoke Cantonese, she was like "why you learn Cantonese, it's barbarian" i was like ***?! She hates her own local dialect (i wonder if she is even really shanghainese, i am guessing probably not - not sure) and says Cantonese (one of the most well preserved of Middle Chinese - Sui, Tang and Song dynasty language) is not a Han Chinese language, so awkward. I am sure she must originate from Northern China or something and not from any provinces in the South, not even Shanghai.

She must be either 'New Shanghainese' or deluded by the putonghua promotion programs.

If Cantonese isn't a Han Chinese language, then I guess Min Chinese, Gan Chinese and whatever that sounds different from Mandarin Chinese dialects are simply all non-Han Chinese languages. This is the greatest joke I hear before.

Gan Chinese spoken in southern Shaanxi is called 蠻子話 'barbarian language' (or 江南話, not be confused with Wu Chinese). It's said that Gan speakers in southern Shaanxi are descended from Jiangxinese garrisons during Qing Dynasty in that area.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 20 April 2010 - 05:55 PM.

[icaktan]

Where do the Turks belong to then? Kazaks are not Mongolian, they are Turkic anyway.

[Moonstone]

I think the only Song Dynasty-era vocabulary in modern Wu Chinese is 落蘇 leh su, which means eggplant. Even though it's not often used today and is used interchangably with 茄子 ga tsy. I've heard my parents use the term 落蘇 before, I only found out that 落蘇 is actually a Song Dynasty-era word for 'eggplant' that Wu speakers still use today.

落蘇 leh su = Japanese nasu ~ nasubi ("eggplant")?
茄子 ga tsy = Manchu haši ("eggplant")?

Does anyone here know the history of domestication of the eggplant?

[qrasy]

India, Nepal, Middle East are grouped into 'Asia' for convenience sake (ie. colored people) by the Europeans but they look nowhere close to true Asians.

Actually it was the "Modern East Asia" that was grouped to "Asia" for convenience sake. [the first place to be associated with "Asia" by the Europeans was Anatolia (now Asia minor), and the next one was Persia, and I guess the next to come was India]
In British English's usage, Asians mostly refer to those from India, but in American English's usage, Asians are only those Easternmost.

Gan Chinese spoken in southern Shaanxi is called 蠻子話 'barbarian language' (or 江南話, not be confused with Wu Chinese). It's said that Gan speakers in southern Shaanxi are descended from Jiangxinese garrisons during Qing Dynasty in that area.

Is it in 商南, Southeastern corner of Shaanxi bordering Hubei and Henan?

Where do the Turks belong to then? Kazaks are not Mongolian, they are Turkic anyway.

Which Turk are you trying to mean? Northeastern Turkish speakers (e.g. Yakuts) are just like East Asians (while I'm not trying to further classify them), whereas Turks of Turkey are closer to Europeans.

落蘇 leh su = Japanese nasu ~ nasubi ("eggplant")?
茄子 ga tsy = Manchu haši ("eggplant")?

Does anyone here know the history of domestication of the eggplant?

I don't know of it, but the Middle Chinese pronunciation of "茄" was (determined to be) "exceptional" phonetically (within the restriction of the phonology of Middle Chinese), not unlike it's loaned from a neighboring language. I read somewhere that it was a Southern crop (can't remember where). And, this word sounds like Vietnamese Cà.
子 is a common Chinese suffix, so if "ha" by itself doesn't mean eggplant in Manchu we can be quite sure that Manchu imported it.

Usually Shanghainese won't confuse l and n, but given the poorness of communication in the past they could be related [unsure].
Using 2 words for the same plant is paralleled in English: "aubergine" and "eggplant".

I wonder how Wikipedia got it, but it's said it's native to India.

Edited by qrasy, 12 May 2010 - 12:29 AM.

[Moonstone]

I don't know of it, but the Middle Chinese pronunciation of "茄" was (determined to be) "exceptional" phonetically (within the restriction of the phonology of Middle Chinese), not unlike it's loaned from a neighboring language. I read somewhere that it was a Southern crop (can't remember where). And, this word sounds like Vietnamese Cà.
子 is a common Chinese suffix, so if "ha" by itself doesn't mean eggplant in Manchu we can be quite sure that Manchu imported it.

Koreans say gaji (가지) for "eggplant." I suppose this also must be cognate with Manchu haši, Mandarin qié-zi, etc. The Korean and Manchu forms are monomorphemic.

Usually Shanghainese won't confuse l and n, but given the poorness of communication in the past they could be related [unsure].
Using 2 words for the same plant is paralleled in English: "aubergine" and "eggplant".

I wonder how Wikipedia got it, but it's said it's native to India.

The confusion between l and n is very common because they are both voiced sounds, and their places of articulation are very similar (at least in the case of the common alveolar n, as in English).

If the eggplant has spread from India, it is plausible that words for this plant and its fruit may have reached East Asian peoples via Southeast Asia, so your comparison to Vietnamese cà might be right on target. On the other hand, a huge percentage of modern Vietnamese vocabulary is obviously derived from Chinese, so I would have to investigate the correspondences between Sino-Vietnamese loan morphemes and their Chinese originals in order to determine whether the direction of borrowing was from Vietnamese to Chinese (and thence, I suppose, to Manchu, Korean, etc.) or rather from Chinese to Vietnamese.

[qrasy]

Koreans say gaji (가지) for "eggplant." I suppose this also must be cognate with Manchu haši, Mandarin qié-zi, etc. The Korean and Manchu forms are monomorphemic.

If it's the case, then almost certainly the direction was from Chinese.

The confusion between l and n is very common because they are both voiced sounds, and their places of articulation are very similar (at least in the case of the common alveolar n, as in English).

They are easily confused in poor hearing or "tired speech", however they are quite distinctive - for native speakers of languages that have both sounds as phonemic initials.
And the confusion appears to be much rarer in the final position as "n" is quite much "blocking".

If the eggplant has spread from India, it is plausible that words for this plant and its fruit may have reached East Asian peoples via Southeast Asia, so your comparison to Vietnamese cà might be right on target. On the other hand, a huge percentage of modern Vietnamese vocabulary is obviously derived from Chinese, so I would have to investigate the correspondences between Sino-Vietnamese loan morphemes and their Chinese originals in order to determine whether the direction of borrowing was from Vietnamese to Chinese (and thence, I suppose, to Manchu, Korean, etc.) or rather from Chinese to Vietnamese.

What I can be sure is that it's not the Late Middle Chinese layer (or later layers), as Regular Middle Chinese layer shows "gia" ("gi" with "soft g" like in general).
And as I said before, the initial+rhyme combination in Middle Chinese is weird enough to be suspected (the rhyme 果開三 itself is already rare). Though exceptions do occur in many languages.

There are earlier layers of contact with Chinese, and in this case it's more difficult to make sure the direction, even if cognate form is found in other Southeast Asian languages.

Tai languages appear to show related forms, though I will have to compare their written forms (which I don't have) to confirm whether they are.

Edited by qrasy, 12 May 2010 - 02:07 AM.

[Moonstone]

If it's the case, then almost certainly the direction was from Chinese.

Yes, that is correct, unless the use of 茄 qié as a free morpheme in Chinese can be demonstrated to be a secondary development. The morphemicization of abbreviated forms of multisyllabic loanwords is fairly common in Sinitic linguistic history, and this practice extends also to pseudo-Sinitic forms coined in non-Chinese countries of the "Sinosphere."

They are easily confused in poor hearing or "tired speech", however they are quite distinctive - for native speakers of languages that have both sounds as phonemic initials.

They are very distinctive for me as a native speaker of English, but the fact is that many East Asians (including various regional subgroups of Koreans and Han Chinese) historically have confused /l/ and /n/ in word-initial position, or, in some cases, in the onset of any syllable.

It should be noted in this context that there is not a single word in the Japanese language that not only is not an obvious loanword, Sino-Japanese coinage, or onomatopoeia, but also begins with the alveolar flap phoneme, which is the closest approximation to an alveolar lateral approximant that Japanese has in its phonemic inventory. Thus, it is likely that a prehistoric (or ancient enough that it would not readily be recognized as a loanword) Japanese borrowing of a word that began with /l/ in the source language would have had its initial consonant changed to /n/ in Japanese, since that is the second closest approximation to [l] that is available in the Japanese phonemic inventory after /ɾ/, which ancient Japanese apparently did not allow to occur in word-initial position.

And the confusion appears to be much rarer in the final position as "n" is quite much "blocking".

This is irrelevant to the present discussion, because neither 落蘇 leh su nor なす nasu has an /l/ or an /n/ in any syllable coda or in word-final position.

[qrasy]

The morphemicization of abbreviated forms of multisyllabic loanwords is fairly common in Sinitic linguistic history, and this practice extends also to pseudo-Sinitic forms coined in non-Chinese countries of the "Sinosphere."

Indeed, that was why I was not 100% for sure.
The chance of getting 子 as the second character for a foreign word is pretty low, though. (I do know of one example: 獅子)
As the time progresses, 子 became more like "Tsz" sound which is quite unusual, especially in Altaic-speaking region.

They are very distinctive for me as a native speaker of English, but the fact is that many East Asians (including various regional subgroups of Koreans and Han Chinese) historically have confused /l/ and /n/ in word-initial position, or, in some cases, in the onset of any syllable.

I am quite familiar with this. But it appears among Chinese to be a modern phenomenon, where syllable structures are reduced to the point that ... many people easily misses auditory details that are not strongly pronounced.
Some people attributes n/l confusion to the contact with Northern Tai peoples (though I'm not sure if it should be the case, as Thai and Lao don't show such feature).

It should be noted in this context that there is not a single word in the Japanese language that not only is not an obvious loanword, Sino-Japanese coinage, or onomatopoeia, but also begins with the alveolar flap phoneme, which is the closest approximation to an alveolar lateral approximant that Japanese has in its phonemic inventory. Thus, it is likely that a prehistoric (or ancient enough that it would not readily be recognized as a loanword) Japanese borrowing of a word that began with /l/ in the source language would have had its initial consonant changed to /n/ in Japanese, since that is the second closest approximation to [l] that is available in the Japanese phonemic inventory after /ɾ/, which ancient Japanese apparently did not allow to occur in word-initial position.

It appears to be a common phonological feature among Korean and Altaic speakers. The "flapped r" is most conveniently produced when it's inbetween vowels (many American English dialects also show it mid-words but not in initial position, e.g. latter and ladder).
They have various methods of "escaping" this limitation, though. Korean will change to n, but Mongolian will add another syllable so e.g. "Ros" -> "Oros".
(a similar thing also occur in Europe where sp-/st-/sc- -> esp-/est-/esc- for some French and Spanish words, whereas numerous other languages tend to add vowel inbetween (not before) the s and p/t/k.)

However, Japanese have never seemed to failed to show the "r" when it's Middle Chinese period.
It could be something more ancient, though.
The vowels rotated in Chinese but I'm not sure about Japanese.
It only appears to me that there were some additional vowels, but apart from the lost vowel combinations the Japanese words (are assumed to?) have little or no vowel shift.

Anyhow, in the case they were related, it suggests that Chinese had it first as n/l were quite distinct in China (and still distinct in most if not all Wu-speaking regions).

This is irrelevant to the present discussion, because neither 落蘇 leh su nor なす nasu has an /l/ or an /n/ in any syllable coda or in word-final position.

I do know that it's not really related to the discussion of the words for eggplants.
Just pointing out that the difference between listening in case of initial and final can be great even with the same consonants.

Edited by qrasy, 12 May 2010 - 10:27 PM.

[Andy Lau]

Han Chinese look the same all over China (whether north or south) but it is normal that there are slight variants, as no group is pure Han. For example a Han Chinese from Taishan Guangdong looks the same like any other Han Chinese: