[agedstudent]

Do the Chinese terms "吐蕃","吐谷蕃",and"吐谷渾" refer to the same people? Is the English term "Tibet" derived from "吐蕃"?

[General_Zhaoyun]

agedstudent, on 25 April 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

Do the Chinese terms "吐蕃","吐谷蕃",and"吐谷渾" refer to the same people? Is the English term "Tibet" derived from "吐蕃"?

No, they do not refer to the same people.

"吐谷渾" refers to Tuyuhun, who established a kingdom in Qilian Mountains and upper Yellow Rivers around middle of 3rd century. They were ethnically related to the Xianbei 鲜卑. For more info, refer to http://en.wikipedia....Tuyuhun_Kingdom

"吐蕃" (Tubo or Tufan) refers to the ancestors of the Tibetan, whose founder Songstan Gambo established the kingdom of Tubo around 600-800 AD (known as Empire of Tibet), which co-existed with Tang dynasty at that time.

According to Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet, the English word "Tibet" (or Thibet) dates back to the 18th century. But currently there are disputes about the origin of the word "Tibet". Some linguists argued that "Tibet" was a loan word from Arabic " طيبة، توبات Tibat or Tobatt". There are also some who suggest Turkic Töbäd "The Heights" (plural of töbän) and a few favor Chinese Tǔbō or Tǔfān.

As for "吐谷蕃" (tuyufan), my guess is that it's referring to "Liu Gu Bu 六谷部" (6 valley tribes) , otherwise also known as "Liu Gu Fan Bu 六谷蕃部". They were generally the descendants of the Tubo. When the Empire of Tibet (Tubo kingdom) collapsed in 842 AD, the remnants of the Tubo tribes formed another kingdom in Hexi Liangzhou (today's Gansu region) . It was conquered by the Tanguts (Western Xia dynasty) in 1032AD.

[agedstudent]

T

Thank you very much, General Zhaoyun. Now I understand. How about the term "吐鲁蕃"? Also,do we have an English term for "藏"? Is "烏斯藏" the same as "西藏"? Please explain. Much obliged. From Agedstudent.

[General_Zhaoyun]

agedstudent, on 27 April 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

T

Thank you very much, General Zhaoyun. Now I understand. How about the term "吐鲁蕃"?

吐鲁蕃 (tulufan) is a region/city in Xinjiang province (Western China). The English name for the city of 吐鲁蕃 on the map is called Turpan.

For more info, refer to the Wikipedia article on Turpan at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpan

Quote

Also,do we have an English term for "藏"?

"Zang 藏" is simply the Chinese short-form term for "Xi Zang 西藏". The English term for "藏" is none other than the famous term "Tibet".

Note that the Chinese term "Zang 藏" actually originated from the Tibetan term "Ü-Tsang དབུས་གཙང" (one of 3 traditional provinces of Tibetan), and the Tibetan term "Tsang"(sometimes also romanized as "gtsang") literally means "Holy" in the Tibetan language

Note that the Chinese terms "Zang Zu 藏族" or "Zang Ren 藏人" all refers to the "Tibetan people" (literally means "holy people").

Quote

Is "烏斯藏" the same as "西藏"? Please explain. Much obliged. From Agedstudent.

Yes, "烏斯藏" (Wu Si Zang) is the same as "西藏" (Xi Zang) or Tibet.

"烏斯藏" (Wu Si Zang) [Tibetan: དབུས་གཙང (dbus gtsang)] is the Chinese term used to refer to Tibet during the Mongol Yuan dynasty. "烏斯 Wu Si" refers to the Tibetan term "dbus" and generally means "Central" in the Tibetan language. Thus, "烏斯藏" (Wu Si Zang) generally means "central Tibet". In its actual location, it actually refers to "卫藏 Weizang" (Ü-Tsang) in today's central Tibet.




How Tibet was later divided into 3 traditional provinces (regions) was due to the Qing dynasty's policy. The eastern region of Tibet was called "康 kang" or "康巴 kangba " (Tibetan: ཁམས Kham), which also stretched into western region of Sichuan provinces. The central region was called "卫 Wei" or "卫藏 Weizang" (Tibetan: དབུས་གཙང་ Ü-Tsang/dbus gtsang). The western region was simply called "藏 Zang" (Tibetan: Tsang/gtsang).

The Amdo region (Tibetan: ཨ༌མདོ , Chinese: 安多), which is part of Qinghai province in China today, was also traditionally a Tibetan region, but it was not ruled by Dalai Lama since 18th century.

[agedstudent]

General_Zhaoyun, on 28 April 2010 - 09:18 AM, said:

吐鲁蕃 (tulufan) is a region/city in Xinjiang province (Western China). The English name for the city of 吐鲁蕃 on the map is called Turpan.

For more info, refer to the Wikipedia article on Turpan at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpan




"Zang 藏" is simply the Chinese short-form term for "Xi Zang 西藏". The English term for "藏" is none other than the famous term "Tibet".

Note that the Chinese term "Zang 藏" actually originated from the Tibetan term "Ü-Tsang དབུས་གཙང" (one of 3 traditional provinces of Tibetan), and the Tibetan term "Tsang"(sometimes also romanized as "gtsang") literally means "Holy" in the Tibetan language

Note that the Chinese terms "Zang Zu 藏族" or "Zang Ren 藏人" all refers to the "Tibetan people" (literally means "holy people").



Yes, "烏斯藏" (Wu Si Zang) is the same as "西藏" (Xi Zang) or Tibet.

"烏斯藏" (Wu Si Zang) [Tibetan: དབུས་གཙང (dbus gtsang)] is the Chinese term used to refer to Tibet during the Mongol Yuan dynasty. "烏斯 Wu Si" refers to the Tibetan term "dbus" and generally means "Central" in the Tibetan language. Thus, "烏斯藏" (Wu Si Zang) generally means "central Tibet". In its actual location, it actually refers to "卫藏 Weizang" (Ü-Tsang) in today's central Tibet.




How Tibet was later divided into 3 traditional provinces (regions) was due to the Qing dynasty's policy. The eastern region of Tibet was called "康 kang" or "康巴 kangba " (Tibetan: ཁམས Kham), which also stretched into western region of Sichuan provinces. The central region was called "卫 Wei" or "卫藏 Weizang" (Tibetan: དབུས་གཙང་ Ü-Tsang/dbus gtsang). The western region was simply called "藏 Zang" (Tibetan: Tsang/gtsang).

The Amdo region (Tibetan: ཨ༌མདོ , Chinese: 安多), which is part of Qinghai province in China today, was also traditionally a Tibetan region, but it was not ruled by Dalai Lama since 18th century.

THANKYOU VERY MUCH.
Regards from Agedstudent