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North vs. South Chinese (may contain traces of ignorance)


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#1 noctorro

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:19 PM

Disclaimer: I have roots in many different areas of China but as an individual, raised 100% Canadian. In an attempt to get an idea of where I come from, I am bound to ask loaded questions and step on people's toes about issues with more weight than I'm aware of. Just know that it's not my intention to piss people off.

The issue I mention in this thread are the aesthetics of the Chinese people. Growing up around Caucasoid types, I never paid much attention to one Asian vs. the next - they all looked the same to me, and I looked just like them. But as a child, I'd accompany my parents when they went to Singapore (where they are from) to visit their families where I learned a majority of the Chinese population are from Southern China. So I thought cool, my roots lie in Southern China, awesome.

Then I grew up.

- I spent a school semester in Japan where as an international student, it was generally assumed that I was Korean despite a sizable Chinese population.
- Years later at a party, I met a guy from China and we got onto the topic of ethnic background to which when asked, I replied, somewhere in the south. He said "you have pale skin, high cheekbones, narrow nose and narrower eyes. Southern Chinese are short (which I am, at 5'7") dark with wide noses and round eyes. How does that work?"
- Some Euro-Canadian friends who claim to be able to tell the difference between oriental types have admitted they were willing to bet their life I was Korean or Japanese, but Chinese as the last they would guess.

And along with these random experiences, I've also heard some pretty harsh terms like "Southern Barbarian" and claims like "they are not true Han, look at their dark skin and frog faces." I hear the "true" Han are apparently tall, high cheekbones, pale, narrow eyes which I fit the bill for (except the tall part :P) and yet my roots are in Southern China - Chao Zhou, Hai Nan and Ke Jia to be exact.

My question is, where does this bigotry stem from??

#2 mrclub

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:35 PM

- Years later at a party, I met a guy from China and we got onto the topic of ethnic background to which when asked, I replied, somewhere in the south. He said "you have pale skin, high cheekbones, narrow nose and narrower eyes. Southern Chinese are short (which I am, at 5'7") dark with wide noses and round eyes. How does that work?"


Skin colour of Southerners are generally darker than Northerners. However, it doesn't mean that Southerners cannot have pale skin.

This narrower eyes, I find it hard to believe. Due to people mixing here and there, both Northerners and Southerners have narrow eyes trait already.

I believe you have to trace your roots again. You are a Southerner, but have Northerner's traits. Might be due to past marriages of Northerners and Southerners in your family.

You might be simply a mixture of Northerner and Southerner.

I am a Southern Han Chinese. My eyes aren't round but they are quite narrow (of course, not as narrow as my friend, a Northerner, if I compare myself with him).
So ? Does this small thing implies that I am Northerner, not Southerner ? Of course not.

- Some Euro-Canadian friends who claim to be able to tell the difference between oriental types have admitted they were willing to bet their life I was Korean or Japanese, but Chinese as the last they would guess.


These Euro-Canadians are jokers. A lot of time, unless you hear the other party speak or you see their actions, if not I doubt it will be easy to spot a Korean, Japanese and Chinese. No doubt, many Koreans and Japanese and Chinese really lookalike with one another.

And along with these random experiences, I've also heard some pretty harsh terms like "Southern Barbarian" and claims like "they are not true Han, look at their dark skin and frog faces." I hear the "true" Han are apparently tall, high cheekbones, pale, narrow eyes which I fit the bill for (except the tall part :P) and yet my roots are in Southern China - Chao Zhou, Hai Nan and Ke Jia to be exact.


Another rubbish.
There is no true Han ethnicity in this world as everyone is simply mixture of little bit from here and there already. No 100% true Han, probably 90%, more or less.

Northerners are true Han ? Hmm, there are plenty of nomadic people living in areas like Manchuria, Mongolia etc. They aren't Han Chinese at all. There is a mixture of Han Chinese and these nomadic people in North China.

I can also tell you, Southerners aren't true Han either. There are minorities living in areas of Southern China which historically aren't under Chinese rule until probably till the last few dynasties or so. During wars when people (supposingly quite pure Han Chinese?) flee from the Central Plains and North China to South, it began the mixture of Han Chinese with other people in South -- minorities, Li people from Hainan Island, Min, Bai-Yue etc. etc. etc.

Correct or not ?

Those fellows who say what "Southern Barbarians" are brainless people, or should I say I pity such people who think Northerners are the true Han and Southerners aren't, when in fact, everyone is a mixture of Han Chinese and non-Han Chinese

Edited by mrclub, 28 April 2010 - 07:41 PM.

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#3 bloodmerchant

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:02 PM

[quote name='noctorro' date='28 April 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1272493185' post='4990983']
[quote]Disclaimer: I have roots in many different areas of China but as an individual, raised 100% Canadian. In an attempt to get an idea of where I come from, I am bound to ask loaded questions and step on people's toes about issues with more weight than I'm aware of. Just know that it's not my intention to piss people off.

The issue I mention in this thread are the aesthetics of the Chinese people. Growing up around Caucasoid types, I never paid much attention to one Asian vs. the next - they all looked the same to me, and I looked just like them. But as a child, I'd accompany my parents when they went to Singapore (where they are from) to visit their families where I learned a majority of the Chinese population are from Southern China. So I thought cool, my roots lie in Southern China, awesome.

Then I grew up. [/quote]

Well, your ancestral origins are not that far from each other, which is probably located all in Guangdong province or Hainan, which is probably implausible to say that you have ancestral origins from all over China.

[quote]And along with these random experiences, I've also heard some pretty harsh terms like "Southern Barbarian" and claims like "they are not true Han, look at their dark skin and frog faces." I hear the "true" Han are apparently tall, high cheekbones, pale, narrow eyes which I fit the bill for (except the tall part :P) and yet my roots are in Southern China - Chao Zhou, Hai Nan and Ke Jia to be exact.[/quote]
These people are ignorant. I am southern Chinese, I have mostly Northern Han features, but with some Southern Han features. My parents and relatives look more like Southerners with some Northern features, and all of them came from the same region. Han Chinese are mixed with many other ethnicities, such as altaic peoples, miao/yao people, and tai-kadai people for example.

Kejia = Hakka, there is no such place in China called 'Ke Jia'. It could be either Meixian, Wuhua, etc...
Chaozhou = Teochew
Hainan = Hainanese

Most overseas Hakka probably came from somewhere around Meixian in Eastern Guangdong, as well as some parts of Western Fujian (most of Longyan). Teochew people are also from Eastern Guangdong, specifically the Chaoshan Plain. Hainanese are migrants from Fujian who settled in Hainan when it was a part of Guangdong. (Their closest linguistic relatives are the Leizhou Min-speaking people on the Leizhou peninsula of Western Guangdong.)

[quote]My question is, where does this bigotry stem from??[/quote]
Northerners tend to be like that a lot, given that they came from a border area that is usually known for fighting off invaders, they tend to be ignorant towards Southern Chinese language and culture. That doesn't help when nearly all Northerners speak Mandarin/Guan-hua or something similar to it.
吳王夫差將伐齊,子胥曰:“不可。夫齊之與吳也,習俗不同,言語不通,我得其地不能處,得其民不得使。夫吳之與越也,接土鄰境,壤交通屬,習俗同,言語通,我得其地能處之,得其民能使之。”
─伍子胥 《知化》,《呂氏春秋》

#4 SNK_1408

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:23 PM

Well since Chinese population have been moved around dramatically since 150 years ago, we aren't sure if there are North and South Chinese ever existed.

Where can we put North Chinese under?
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#5 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:18 PM

I'm a Taiwanese of Hoklo (Minnan) origin. That means to say I'm a southern Chinese. But my looks are slightly different from that of Cantonese people.

I read from some research articles (gathered from DNA Anthropology research) that Hoklo (Hokkien/Minnan) had more Yue ethnic 越族 blood ancestry than the original "han" ancestry. But my guess is that I could contain Yue, traces of "han" (or even some Taiwanese Sirya aborigine blood).

Even some research has indicated that southern Chinese (Hokkien, Wu-Chinese, Teochews, Cantonese, Hainanese and those from coastal region of Zhejiang, Fujian, Guangdong) had mixed blood of traces of Yue and "original Han" ancestry.

Just to let you know that during the 3rd to 5th century, during the chaos of Yongjia, there was a large migration of Han-Chinese from northern China to the regions of Fujian, Guangdong due to northern invasion by "northern nomadic barbarians". They intermingled with local Yue tribes to form the southern Han-Chinese today.


And along with these random experiences, I've also heard some pretty harsh terms like "Southern Barbarian" and claims like "they are not true Han, look at their dark skin and frog faces." I hear the "true" Han are apparently tall, high cheekbones, pale, narrow eyes which I fit the bill for (except the tall part :P) and yet my roots are in Southern China - Chao Zhou, Hai Nan and Ke Jia to be exact.


If they tell you that you're "Southern Barbarian", you can also tell them that they are 'northern Barbarian".

Northern Chinese also do not have so-called "pure Han" blood. They are mixed with northern nomadic bloods from the various northern nomadic barbarians who invaded and occupied northern China during the course of Chinese history, including Xiongnu, Xianbei, Turks, Tuyuhun, Khitan, Jurchen, Tanguts, Mongols, Manchu etc. That's why a lot of them look more rugged like Mongolians, with small eyes, high cheekbones that are more alike the Koreans..

During the age of fragmentation, the ruling class of northern Dynasty were basically Tuoba Xianbei, a northern nomadic tribe who later sinicized themselves into Han-Chinese.
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#6 bloodmerchant

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:53 AM

I heard there are some southern Chinese who do have northern nomadic blood. For example, some state that they have Xianbei ancestry.

My father told be that his family is partially descended from northern nomad-influenced Han (who intermarried with them) who later settled in Zhejiang province who later intermarried with locals. (So the route probably was Northern China -> probably somewhere in Guangdong -> Somewhere around Putian/Jinjiang in Fujian -> Zhejiang) But I have yet to check the jiapu to find out. For my mother, she doesn't know her history but I assume it's probably local people of Jiangnan (which could be any mix of Han, Baiyue, and Miao-Yao).

For me, I could have Xianbei (maybe other northern nomad), Han, Baiyue, Miao-Yao ancestry.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 16 January 2011 - 03:53 PM.

吳王夫差將伐齊,子胥曰:“不可。夫齊之與吳也,習俗不同,言語不通,我得其地不能處,得其民不得使。夫吳之與越也,接土鄰境,壤交通屬,習俗同,言語通,我得其地能處之,得其民能使之。”
─伍子胥 《知化》,《呂氏春秋》

#7 qrasy

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:54 AM

I read from some research articles (gathered from DNA Anthropology research) that Hoklo (Hokkien/Minnan) had more Yue ethnic 越族 blood ancestry than the original "han" ancestry. But my guess is that I could contain Yue, traces of "han" (or even some Taiwanese Sirya aborigine blood).

Even some research has indicated that southern Chinese (Hokkien, Wu-Chinese, Teochews, Cantonese, Hainanese and those from coastal region of Zhejiang, Fujian, Guangdong) had mixed blood of traces of Yue and "original Han" ancestry.

Actually, while the data we can obtain today easily shows how close Northern and Southern Chinese are to their neighbors, it's quite difficult to say which type of Chinese are closer to "original Han", unless you make an assumption first.

Laurent Sagart (a linguist) actually thinks that "original" Sino-Tibetan were closer to speakers of "Southern language families", whereas Northern Sino-Tibetan are altered by Northern nomads.
He also seemed to find some altaic substratum in Northern Tibeto-Burman.

There could be no "entirely convincing way" to conclude which type was closer, though.

Northerners tend to be like that a lot, given that they came from a border area that is usually known for fighting off invaders, they tend to be ignorant towards Southern Chinese language and culture. That doesn't help when nearly all Northerners speak Mandarin/Guan-hua or something similar to it.

I see that there's indeed that kind of ignorance as seen from one post in the languages forum in the thread about how Southerners and Northerners.

Of course, it amounts to how most people build their knowledge (I'm talking about the habit since childhood). Most naive assumption would be all type of Chinese were similar to the ones one is used with, and when significant differences are encountered, one would tell oneself that it's "impure forms".

Many of the Southern features preserve important features of ancient Chinese better than Mandarin even though all of them are far from perfect, but naive assumption makers won't think about it until they get "corrected by another person".

Edited by qrasy, 29 April 2010 - 04:39 AM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#8 sinster

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 10:48 AM

Disclaimer: I have roots in many different areas of China but as an individual, raised 100% Canadian. In an attempt to get an idea of where I come from, I am bound to ask loaded questions and step on people's toes about issues with more weight than I'm aware of. Just know that it's not my intention to piss people off.

The issue I mention in this thread are the aesthetics of the Chinese people. Growing up around Caucasoid types, I never paid much attention to one Asian vs. the next - they all looked the same to me, and I looked just like them. But as a child, I'd accompany my parents when they went to Singapore (where they are from) to visit their families where I learned a majority of the Chinese population are from Southern China. So I thought cool, my roots lie in Southern China, awesome.

Then I grew up.

- I spent a school semester in Japan where as an international student, it was generally assumed that I was Korean despite a sizable Chinese population.
- Years later at a party, I met a guy from China and we got onto the topic of ethnic background to which when asked, I replied, somewhere in the south. He said "you have pale skin, high cheekbones, narrow nose and narrower eyes. Southern Chinese are short (which I am, at 5'7") dark with wide noses and round eyes. How does that work?"
- Some Euro-Canadian friends who claim to be able to tell the difference between oriental types have admitted they were willing to bet their life I was Korean or Japanese, but Chinese as the last they would guess.

And along with these random experiences, I've also heard some pretty harsh terms like "Southern Barbarian" and claims like "they are not true Han, look at their dark skin and frog faces." I hear the "true" Han are apparently tall, high cheekbones, pale, narrow eyes which I fit the bill for (except the tall part :P) and yet my roots are in Southern China - Chao Zhou, Hai Nan and Ke Jia to be exact.

My question is, where does this bigotry stem from??


Dude, why is it u speak 3 languages but none of them is your mother tongue. Where is your chinese pride??

To tell u the truth, some vietnamese do look like chinese. But because they r speaking vietnamese, it is hard to tell whether they r ethnic chinese from vietnam or kinh people. But then again, some research have shown that viet people have a dual sinitic-thai stock ancestry. So r the vietnamese who look chinese implies they have chinese ancestry. I admit that i tend to think this way due to events in history. However, it is really hard to judge purirty of a person origin from phenotype alone. There was this group of people from papua New guineaa who have African phenotype but genetic research have shown that they r way different from Arficans. The only way to find out is through DNA studies. ANd if I am not wrong, some studies have shown that Y-chromosome of north and south chinese are pretty similar, implying a common paternal origin of all chinese people.

#9 noctorro

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 01:55 PM

Dude, why is it u speak 3 languages but none of them is your mother tongue. Where is your chinese pride??

To tell u the truth, some vietnamese do look like chinese. But because they r speaking vietnamese, it is hard to tell whether they r ethnic chinese from vietnam or kinh people. But then again, some research have shown that viet people have a dual sinitic-thai stock ancestry. So r the vietnamese who look chinese implies they have chinese ancestry. I admit that i tend to think this way due to events in history. However, it is really hard to judge purirty of a person origin from phenotype alone. There was this group of people from papua New guineaa who have African phenotype but genetic research have shown that they r way different from Arficans. The only way to find out is through DNA studies. ANd if I am not wrong, some studies have shown that Y-chromosome of north and south chinese are pretty similar, implying a common paternal origin of all chinese people.


So I'm guessing it can be concluded that with such a large country as China and its 54 (?) ethnic minority groups, and the interaction it's had with neighbouring nations, there really is no genetic template that defines a Chinese person. Or ... ANY ethnicity for that matter since humans are just genetic variations of each other to varying degrees. The farther you go, the higher the degree. Superficial differences can be mostly attributed to the climate and geography. This is a pretty watered down conclusion, I know.

Pride-wise, 4 family generations separate me from China. Too far away (chronologically, and geographically) to have mean anything, and it doesn't feel right to base my pride on sentimentality. However, in an attempt to change that, that's why I'm here! :D

#10 Willa Catha

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 11:48 AM

Disclaimer: I have roots in many different areas of China but as an individual, raised 100% Canadian. In an attempt to get an idea of where I come from, I am bound to ask loaded questions and step on people's toes about issues with more weight than I'm aware of. Just know that it's not my intention to piss people off.

The issue I mention in this thread are the aesthetics of the Chinese people. Growing up around Caucasoid types, I never paid much attention to one Asian vs. the next - they all looked the same to me, and I looked just like them. But as a child, I'd accompany my parents when they went to Singapore (where they are from) to visit their families where I learned a majority of the Chinese population are from Southern China. So I thought cool, my roots lie in Southern China, awesome.

Then I grew up.

- I spent a school semester in Japan where as an international student, it was generally assumed that I was Korean despite a sizable Chinese population.
- Years later at a party, I met a guy from China and we got onto the topic of ethnic background to which when asked, I replied, somewhere in the south. He said "you have pale skin, high cheekbones, narrow nose and narrower eyes. Southern Chinese are short (which I am, at 5'7") dark with wide noses and round eyes. How does that work?"
- Some Euro-Canadian friends who claim to be able to tell the difference between oriental types have admitted they were willing to bet their life I was Korean or Japanese, but Chinese as the last they would guess.

And along with these random experiences, I've also heard some pretty harsh terms like "Southern Barbarian" and claims like "they are not true Han, look at their dark skin and frog faces." I hear the "true" Han are apparently tall, high cheekbones, pale, narrow eyes which I fit the bill for (except the tall part :P) and yet my roots are in Southern China - Chao Zhou, Hai Nan and Ke Jia to be exact.

My question is, where does this bigotry stem from??


Well, I just want to pitch in, this question is too prickly, and very demanding... :crybaby:

In Journey to the West, when the great Monkey King burst forth from the rock, the first action he took was to humbly kneel down to the ground, kiss the soil, and thank the land for his very being.

You're interested in what a human body looks like, generally, from the North, versus the South. It's almost like asking how many shades of soil there can be, with all the plant and animal life living there making up such a composite. The variety, the probabilities, it's astronomical: generalization, impossible!

However, there is a test, to see if you're truly from the North or South. People from the North, they're upland, highland (however you call it), know the grasslands and mountains really well, being very nomadic. The land makes them strong, very yang, and spirited (even the women!) They're the conquerors, the warriors, heroes, the ones who say what they mean, and they mean what they say. Honest to the point of fault. They'd ride on horses for days on end, and it's the freedom in the wind that makes up their psyche. And when they drink wine, they'll swallow entire jars, then throw them on the ground, and sleep looking up at the sky. This part of them is alive in their blood, and when you talk with them, you can bait them with catch phrases, like "freedom" and "independence", "travel" and "adventure", and the fire in their eyes makes them glow and their faces flush a furious red.

The people from the South, the land of plenty, where there are the willow trees and silk worms, they mimick the qualities of the land, and they become lovers of fine beauty and art. Their ingenuity is in creating culture, and sophistication. They don't need to be forceful, or have the will to brave storms, because they already have the supremacy of civilization, human organization, that protects them from the elements. Instead, their intelligences develop not to trample and conquer a crown, but to dally with nature to improve the quality of living. Speak to them about your needs particular to the senses, they're exceptionally knowledgeable about the north, south, west, and west, having written whole books on the ABC's of any topic. They're your scholars, politicians, the merchants, etc. the ones who can make a sedentary life worth living.

So, to know if you're truly from the North, or South, it's not about skin color, how big or little is the nose, but what runs in your blood, do you find happiness in the good life, or the rough life?

But I strongly suspect that a lot of times, people themselves do not know. Their bodies will do the talking for them, for they will seek that which courses in their veins: their connection to their homeland. :rolleyes:

#11 mohistManiac

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:02 PM

This is a funny story. I remember I once did a report in school about my birthplace of Taiwan during sixth grade and during the presentation upon revealing to my classmates about the relationship between Taiwan and China in terms of similarity in culture especially with the southern expanse of China I finished off by saying something to the extent that I felt proud to be a Chinese person to have been born in Taiwan at which point one of my classmates, a Chinese, rose up from his seat and simply blurted out "Ms. Teacher, he's not really Chinese though he's just Taiwanese" at which point Ms. Teacher tried to calm things by saying "Whatever you may feel he certainly comes from a very noble race." That kid simply had beef with southerners (for some reason, probably the way he was raised) and goes on to mention something to the extent that everything in the North which you thought China was famous for like the Great Wall of China, the Forbidden City, the Beijing capital, the temples and pagodas, even the Han culture itself was situated in the north and therefore obviously built and developed by northerners or Han to be exact. If you have trouble believing that part you definitely won't believe this next part but my classmate actually went up to me and pinched my nose in an effort to give credit to the claim that southerners have "no nose" and that southerners are typically shorter with shorter limbs and shorter necks and meanwhile I just sort of stood there feeling a bit weird about my presentation and that I was being fraudulent about being Chinese. I sometimes don't even find it to be bigotry, rather it could all just be nonsense, you know as they say for the lulz :b_woot: .

I have the fortune of living in the part of the world which has use for toilet paper, but not douches.


#12 xng

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    Chinese Linguistics, Buddhism, East Asian anthropology

Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:25 PM

And along with these random experiences, I've also heard some pretty harsh terms like "Southern Barbarian" and claims like "they are not true Han, look at their dark skin and frog faces."
My question is, where does this bigotry stem from??


Southern chinese have darker skin mainly due to the hotter weather down south which is especially true for the farmers or taxi drivers. When they were babies, they have fair skin. Why are these people so ignorant as not to know what is called 'sun-tan' ? Try working in the farm everyday for 10 years and then you tell me whether you have fair or dark skin ?

Height is partially determined by both genes and diet. Those who migrated overseas usually are taller than their parents due to better diet. I have seen many southern chinese who migrated to canada, USA, australia and their offsprings are much taller than their immigrant parents.

Edited by xng, 16 June 2010 - 02:26 PM.





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