26 replies to this topic

[ChristianSoldier]

Living in a westernized world, I never knew what strategies, formations, and equipment the han chinese had. I only hear about how great the romans were, their testudo formation, their gladius, pilums, loricas segmentas, etc. I'm tired of that. I want to know more about my heritage. From what I have discovered, han and rome were once powerful, and they existed pretty much in the same time period. Also han were known for their great military feats. so any of you chinese experts share with me some of the equipment, units, and formations of the han army during that time? this is what I know currently but please correct me thanks. post some pictures of their army, and give examples of how they would use their cavalry. Also what was that battle the hans defeated the xiongnu?

Units:
Han archer: carried the repeating crossbow
front row(first row) infantry: carried shield and sword
Back row infantry: carried Ji
Cavalry: Hans riding on horseback carrying crossbows, and reportedly swords as well.

Equipment(iron, leather, and steel):
helmet- IMPORTANT: Did all chinese units weat helmets? or some of them went in rambo with their groomed thick hair?
Lacquerd leather/ iron body armor- hans employ new tech, iron body armor. Another Q did all han warriors use body armor? or some of them just wore silk and cloth to combat?
swords- made of bronze, and then steel. used by first row infantry.
ji- halberds, used by rear infantry man, behind first row infantry.
crossbows/repeating crossbows- heard that repeating crossbows blow, and chinese started using crossbows agian.

Military Formation:
Crossbow men infront of the infantry
front/first row infantry carry shields and swords
back row infantry carry Jis
cavalry behind infantry carried crossbows.

correct me if im wrong.

[Mei Houwang]

I hate to break it to you, but you won't find much information about formations or equipment in China either. The primary sources tend to be written by bureaucrats, not generals. You'll find some of the overall strategies, but it usually won't get any deeper than that. What we do have is terra cotta soldiers. Emperor Jing of Han's mausoleum gives much information.

[ChristianSoldier]

I hate to break it to you, but you won't find much information about formations or equipment in China either. The primary sources tend to be written by bureaucrats, not generals. You'll find some of the overall strategies, but it usually won't get any deeper than that. What we do have is terra cotta soldiers. Emperor Jing of Han's mausoleum gives much information.

pics of han yangjing's mausoleum, especially military. I heard they were similar to the qin, and also had female warriors. Also their infantry unit formation was horrible, because only the first row of soldiers had shields, that means soldiers from the back are vulnerable to bows, arrows, and javelins.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Also their infantry unit formation was horrible, because only the first row of soldiers had shields, that means soldiers from the back are vulnerable to bows, arrows, and javelins.

For a picture of a Chinese military formation, refer to http://www.chinahist...some-questions/

Since when did you assume that only the first row had shields ? The Chinese army were not grouped into an "infantry only" groups. There could be a combination of infantry, archers (at the back).

Furthermore, the formation are usually far from the range of archery (arrows), so the first row (with shields) were only meant to fend off the charge of cavalry. But the 2nd or 3rd rows of crossbowers were usually used to eliminate the charge of cavalry, that by the time the cavalry reached the formation, they were already shot down by crossbowers.

If it were infantry, it could comprised of spearman, halbertiers, swordsman etc. A swordman would almost indefinitely carry shield.

Below shows a picture of a formation (taken from a movie):

Living in a westernized world, I never knew what strategies, formations, and equipment the han chinese had. I only hear about how great the romans were, their testudo formation, their gladius, pilums, loricas segmentas, etc. I'm tired of that. I want to know more about my heritage. From what I have discovered, han and rome were once powerful, and they existed pretty much in the same time period. Also han were known for their great military feats. so any of you chinese experts share with me some of the equipment, units, and formations of the han army during that time? this is what I know currently but please correct me thanks. post some pictures of their army, and give examples of how they would use their cavalry. Also what was that battle the hans defeated the xiongnu?

Units:
Han archer: carried the repeating crossbow
front row(first row) infantry: carried shield and sword
Back row infantry: carried Ji
Cavalry: Hans riding on horseback carrying crossbows, and reportedly swords as well.

Equipment(iron, leather, and steel):
helmet- IMPORTANT: Did all chinese units weat helmets? or some of them went in rambo with their groomed thick hair?
Lacquerd leather/ iron body armor- hans employ new tech, iron body armor. Another Q did all han warriors use body armor? or some of them just wore silk and cloth to combat?
swords- made of bronze, and then steel. used by first row infantry.
ji- halberds, used by rear infantry man, behind first row infantry.
crossbows/repeating crossbows- heard that repeating crossbows blow, and chinese started using crossbows agian.

Military Formation:
Crossbow men infront of the infantry
front/first row infantry carry shields and swords
back row infantry carry Jis
cavalry behind infantry carried crossbows.

correct me if im wrong.

For info regarding Han military, units, armours, weapons, refer to the following threads:

http://www.chinahist...ilitary-system/
http://s8.invisionfr...hp?showtopic=42
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7440
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4470
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7672
http://www.chinahist...rn-han-warfare/

There are not many information on han military and units, even Chinese information are rare. What the current academics are relying on are the results from archaeological discovery, excavation and research.

I suggest you read up the following academic source on Han military:

"Later Han Military Organisation; being the Chronicle of Later Han for the years 189 to 220 AD", Rafe de Crespigny, Asian Studies Monographs, New Series No. 21, The Australian National University, (1996)

"The Division and Destruction of the Xiongnu Confederacy in the first and second centuries AD, [Turkish: "Hun Konfederasyonu'nun Blnmesi ve Yikilmasi"], Rafe de Crespigny, The Turks [Yeni TrkiyeMedya Hismetleri-Murat Ocak], Ankara (2002)

"To Establish Peace: being the Chronicle of the Later Han dynasty for the years 189 to 220 AD as recorded in Chapters 59 to 69 of the Zizhi tongjian of Sima Guang [volume 1: Chapters 59-63, 189-200]", translated and annotated by Rafe de Crespigny. Asian Studies Monographs, New Series No. 21, The Australian National University, (1996)

[TheAznValedictorian]

For a picture of a Chinese military formation, refer to http://www.chinahist...some-questions/

Since when did you assume that only the first row had shields ? The Chinese army were not grouped into an "infantry only" groups. There could be a combination of infantry, archers (at the back).

Furthermore, the formation are usually far from the range of archery (arrows), so the first row (with shields) were only meant to fend off the charge of cavalry. But the 2nd or 3rd rows of crossbowers were usually used to eliminate the charge of cavalry, that by the time the cavalry reached the formation, they were already shot down by crossbowers.

If it were infantry, it could comprised of spearman, halbertiers, swordsman etc. A swordman would almost indefinitely carry shield.

Below shows a picture of a formation (taken from a movie):









For info regarding Han military, units, armours, weapons, refer to the following threads:

http://www.chinahist...ilitary-system/
http://s8.invisionfr...hp?showtopic=42
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7440
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4470
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=7672
http://www.chinahist...rn-han-warfare/

There are not many information on han military and units, even Chinese information are rare. What the current academics are relying on are the results from archaeological discovery, excavation and research.

I suggest you read up the following academic source on Han military:

"Later Han Military Organisation; being the Chronicle of Later Han for the years 189 to 220 AD", Rafe de Crespigny, Asian Studies Monographs, New Series No. 21, The Australian National University, (1996)

"The Division and Destruction of the Xiongnu Confederacy in the first and second centuries AD, [Turkish: "Hun Konfederasyonu'nun Blnmesi ve Yikilmasi"], Rafe de Crespigny, The Turks [Yeni TrkiyeMedya Hismetleri-Murat Ocak], Ankara (2002)

"To Establish Peace: being the Chronicle of the Later Han dynasty for the years 189 to 220 AD as recorded in Chapters 59 to 69 of the Zizhi tongjian of Sima Guang [volume 1: Chapters 59-63, 189-200]", translated and annotated by Rafe de Crespigny. Asian Studies Monographs, New Series No. 21, The Australian National University, (1996)

GZ, I think I know where Christian got his idea from. It was from my own thread labelled "Percentage of Shielded Infantry". Here's the picture that I am talking about:


Based on the picture, I have speculated that the Chinese infantry might be as bad as the Persians. The reason is because the Chinese appear to have shields only at the front row. Also, the armor seemed to be distributed in a disorganized way; not every person appears to have armor, and the amount of protection that each armor provide appears to be different from one to the other.

Also, GZ, are you sure that the movie was historically correct? Textually, I know that big shields were used by Han Dynasty. However, they were mentioned only in the sieges; I did not hear of any big shields being used in the fields. Archaeologically, I have never seen tomb drawings or terracotta pits that included big shields. The drawing of big shields came only during the Age of Fragmentation, am I correct? If there were such tomb drawings and terracotta pits during Han Dynasty, can you please provide me the pictures? Thanks

Edited by TheAznValedictorian, 24 May 2010 - 11:28 AM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

GZ, I think I know where Christian got his idea from. It was from my own thread labelled "Percentage of Shielded Infantry". Here's the picture that I am talking about:


Based on the picture, I have speculated that the Chinese infantry might be as bad as the Persians. The reason is because the Chinese appear to have shields only at the front row. Also, the armor seemed to be distributed in a disorganized way; not every person appears to have armor, and the amount of protection that each armor provide appears to be different from one to the other.

Also, GZ, are you sure that the movie was historically correct? Textually, I know that big shields were used by Han Dynasty. However, they were mentioned only in the sieges; I did not hear of any big shields being used in the fields. Archaeologically, I have never seen tomb drawings or terracotta pits that included big shields. The drawing of big shields came only during the Age of Fragmentation, am I correct? If there were such tomb drawings and terracotta pits during Han Dynasty, can you please provide me the pictures? Thanks

If I'm not wrong, the picture is from the museum of Han terrocotta at Xu Zhou 徐州汉兵马俑博物馆 about the Tomb of Duke of Chu. It actually showed the light infantry, which were generally poorly armoured. Note that within the infantry, there were actually some bureaucrats officials. That's why you don't see them wearing any armour, but silk clothings. The actual infantry would be wearing some form of armour. But as said, the army does not belong to the Emperor, therefore you won't see such a massive scale of formation.

Anyway, if you can, refer to my post http://www.chinahist...ost__p__4991820 . I did some research online and found some good information and explanation on Han helmet.



Below is a reconstruction of Han armour based on the archaeological excavation from Han terrocotta museum at Xu Zhou.


I'm still trying to find out more about whether there was any "big shield" in Han army...

[TheAznValedictorian]

If I'm not wrong, the picture is from the museum of Han terrocotta at Xu Zhou 徐州汉兵马俑博物馆 about the Tomb of Duke of Chu. It actually showed the light infantry, which were generally poorly armoured. Note that within the infantry, there were actually some bureaucrats officials. That's why you don't see them wearing any armour, but silk clothings. The actual infantry would be wearing some form of armour. But as said, the army does not belong to the Emperor, therefore you won't see such a massive scale of formation.

Anyway, if you can, refer to my post http://www.chinahist...ost__p__4991820 . I did some research online and found some good information and explanation on Han helmet.



Below is a reconstruction of Han armour based on the archaeological excavation from Han terrocotta museum at Xu Zhou.


I'm still trying to find out more about whether there was any "big shield" in Han army...

Wow, thanks GZ. That definitely cleared up some of the misconceptions that I have.

[ChristianSoldier]

If I'm not wrong, the picture is from the museum of Han terrocotta at Xu Zhou 徐州汉兵马俑博物馆 about the Tomb of Duke of Chu. It actually showed the light infantry, which were generally poorly armoured. Note that within the infantry, there were actually some bureaucrats officials. That's why you don't see them wearing any armour, but silk clothings. The actual infantry would be wearing some form of armour. But as said, the army does not belong to the Emperor, therefore you won't see such a massive scale of formation.

Anyway, if you can, refer to my post http://www.chinahist...ost__p__4991820 . I did some research online and found some good information and explanation on Han helmet.



Below is a reconstruction of Han armour based on the archaeological excavation from Han terrocotta museum at Xu Zhou.


I'm still trying to find out more about whether there was any "big shield" in Han army...

The han terracotta army dont look like their wearing helmets. But it makes sense that they are not well-equipped when you said that its not the emperor of han's army. Also that helmet is not hans, it's Qin. and the han helmet looks, no offense, "silly".

Here is a better representation of how a Qin warrior looks like with the helmet.



starts at 0:17

Also where did you get the picture of the colorless terracotta army?

[General_Zhaoyun]

The han terracotta army dont look like their wearing helmets. But it makes sense that they are not well-equipped when you said that its not the emperor of han's army. Also that helmet is not hans, it's Qin. and the han helmet looks, no offense, "silly".

The han terrocotta belonged to the Duke of Chu - Liuwu 刘戊

Btw, can you elaborate what you mean by "silly" ? In what way are the "han helmet" silly ? I'm curious to know your view.

Also where did you get the picture of the colorless terracotta army?

The helmet belongs to Han, not Qin.

My information came from the Chinese source about the Museum of Han terrocotta at Xuzhou 徐州汉兵马俑博物馆.

The Chinese source is at http://www.hudong.co...%89%A9%E9%A6%86

[RollingWave]

There is this one vivid battle description towards the very end of the Han dynasty that had a lot to do with shields.

"紹自往征瓚，合戰於界橋南二十里。瓚步兵三萬餘人為方陳，騎為兩翼，左右各五千餘匹，白馬義從為中堅，亦分作兩校，左射右，右射左，旌旗鎧甲，光照天地。紹令麹義以八百兵為先登，強弩千張夾承之，紹自以步兵數萬結陳於後。義久在涼州，曉習羌斗，兵皆驍銳。瓚見其兵少，便放騎欲陵蹈之。義兵皆伏楯下不動，未至數十步，乃同時俱起，揚塵大叫，直前衝突，強弩雷發，所中必倒，臨陳斬瓚所署冀州刺史嚴綱甲首千餘級。瓚軍敗績，步騎奔走，不復還營。義追至界橋；瓚殿兵還戰橋上，義復破之，遂到瓚營，拔其牙門，營中餘眾皆復散走。紹在後，未到橋十數里，下馬發鞍，見瓚已破，不為設備，惟帳下強弩數十張，大戟士百餘人自隨。瓚部迸騎二千餘匹卒至，便圍紹數重，弓矢雨下。別駕從事田豐扶紹欲卻入空垣，紹以兜鍪撲地曰：「大丈夫當前斗死，而入牆間，豈可得活乎？」強弩乃亂髮，多所殺傷。瓚騎不知是紹，亦稍引卻；會麹義來迎，乃散去。瓚每與虜戰，常乘白馬，追不虛發，數獲戎捷，虜相告雲「當避白馬」。因虜所忌，簡其白馬數千匹，選騎射之士，號為白馬義從"

It's called the battle of border bridge, and basically a small vanguard army of Yuan Shao (around 500 infantry) advnaced towards a much larger army, the opposing army send several thousand horse archers at this small group, but the infantry "hide beneath their shields" untill "the horses were only around 10 paces from them" and then they all "rose up suddenly and launched their hidden crossbow" and they ended up winning the day as the surprsing point blank shot devastated the horsemans and send the rest into confusion.


So whatever shield they were carrying was enough for the entire group to mostly surive an arrow barrage from a much larger group of horse archer, even after they entered very close range.


I should point out that those figurine were from the Han fiefs, who were limited in military terms by decree and many were far from the borders and not really facing much everyday needs for war.

[ChristianSoldier]

The han terrocotta belonged to the Duke of Chu - Liuwu 刘戊

Btw, can you elaborate what you mean by "silly" ? In what way are the "han helmet" silly ? I'm curious to know your view.



The helmet belongs to Han, not Qin.

My information came from the Chinese source about the Museum of Han terrocotta at Xuzhou 徐州汉兵马俑博物馆.

The Chinese source is at http://www.hudong.co...%89%A9%E9%A6%86

silly as in, it doesnt look cool.

[TheAznValedictorian]

silly as in, it doesnt look cool.

For which one are you talking about?

If you are talking about the reconstructed one, then yes I would have to agree that it looks silly.
But if you are talking about the terracotta ones, then I would have to disagree; those look pretty cool.

[XiaoXiao]

I think this is wrong to judge an army is weak because they don't wear heavy armor.

We should see a whole picture of military strategy. What they wear and equipment they carry are depend on the military strategy. Mongols cavalry didn't need to wear heavy armor and tall horse to defeat Hungarian Heavy Cavalry, instead they use missile and fast movement. Of course a heavy armored foot soldiers is an easy target in the open area.

Just like, were European medieval full plate armor army can defeat non-armored Napoleon army?


It is exiting to know Han Army formation and whole military strategy that can defeat Xiongnu.

Edited by XiaoXiao, 30 May 2010 - 11:45 AM.

[Intranetusa]

The Han did have heavy infantry. The ones that aren't wearing much armor are the light infantry and skirmisher troops.

[Zhao Yun '87]

The Han did have heavy infantry. The ones that aren't wearing much armor are the light infantry and skirmisher troops.

I've heard the Han heavy infantry theory a lot but I haven't found any information about it in texts or contemporary art of the time. I know they were very capable of producing them, and that perhaps some elite units were, but from everything I've seen you have to go off of assumptions that they had them and guess the number.

Can anyone link art or titles that referrence heavier armed infantry (or even cavalry) from the Han?

I've also heard several people speak about mixed units in Han and Qin formations. Such as two ranks spears followed by two ranks of crossbows. I've seen this in several secondary sources but have seen no actual evidence for it. Does anyone know of any? Personally, I more lean to believing that the units were kept seperately.

Edited by Zhao Yun '87, 30 June 2010 - 02:10 AM.