7 replies to this topic

[south]

I have some confusion over these states. In the Chinese maps, BoHai is categorized as Tang territory despite been independent. I've found that Tang actually made BoHai into a Du Du Fu later. Xin Luo have been made into a feudal territory as well. Yet the Western maps seem to miss out completely on this situation.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I have some confusion over these states. In the Chinese maps, BoHai is categorized as Tang territory despite been independent. I've found that Tang actually made BoHai into a Du Du Fu later. Xin Luo have been made into a feudal territory as well. Yet the Western maps seem to miss out completely on this situation.

You mean Barhae and Shilla?

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I'm not exactly Chinese savvy.

[Yun]

Yes, he means Barhae and Silla.

The Tang intervened in the dispute between two brothers who both claimed the throne of Barhae in the mid-8th century. But as Kandie says, the Dudu fu or Duhu fu were not a form of direct rule. They were more like Protectorates, similar to the later European colonial practice of having Residents in Southeast Asian states.

As for Silla, I think GJ will be clearer about whether they ever fully acknowledged tributary status to the Tang.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Well for Barhae (Bohai) it received the title of kingdom in 762...

They even lead an attack on Tang in 732.

As for Shilla (Xinluo)...I'm not quite sure. Like Barhae I think they did acknowledge Tang as the leader of the world. But, there are some connotations to the tributary system. I personally think that it was more of an embassy/trade system to promote stability.

So Bohai started out as a prefecture but became a kingdom. and Xinluo was always just a kingdom, although Tang had plans to conquer it after it had helped Xinluo destroy Gaogouli and Baijei (Spelling?)

[Yun]

This is the Xin Tangshu account of the history of Bohai (Barhae):

The Bohai kings were originally Limo Malgal subjects of Koguryo, with the surname of Da. After the destruction of Koguryo, they led their people to occupy Mount Dongmu of the Yilou people (former name for the Malgal), 2,000 li east of Yingzhou. On their south was Silla, with the Ni River as the border between the two. On the east was the great ocean, and on their west were the Khitan. They built cities to live in, and some of the remnants of Koguryo pledged allegiance to them.

In 696-697, the Khitan Jingzhong (a chieftain enfeoffed by the Tang as a Grand General and Commander-in-Chief of Songmo) rebelled and killed the Commander-in-Chief (Dudu) of Yingzhou, Zhao Wenhui. A man named Sheli Qiqi Zhongxiang fled east with the Malgal chieftain Qisi Biyu and remnants of Koguryo, crossing the Liao River and occupying the northeast of the Taibai mountains. They blocked traffic on the Aolou River and erected their own fortifications. Empress Wu (Zetian) enfeoffed Qisi Biyu as Duke of Xu and Qiqi Zhongxiang as Duke of Zhen, and offered them an amnesty. But Biyu refused to accept this, and the Empress then issued an edict for Grand General Li Kaigu and Guards General Suo Qiu to attack and kill him. At this time, Zhongxiang had died, and his son Zuorong led the remainder of his followers to flee. Li Kaigu pursued relentlessly, and crossed the Tianmen Ridge. Zuorong then resisted Kaigu with Koguryo and Malgal troops, and Kaigu retreated in defeat. [This was the same Ridge where the Khitan defeated An Lushan's army in 751 or 752.]

So the Khitan pledged allegiance to the Turkut, and the Tang army was cut off from them and unable to subdue them. Zuorong then took over the forces of Biyu (who had been killed), and taking advantage of his remote location, founded his own state, titling himself as King of Zhen (Zhenguo Wang) and sending envoys to establish relations with the Turkut. His kingdom was 5,000 li across, with over 100,000 households, and several tens of thousands of fine soldiers. The people were quite familiar with writing. They conquered the various kingdoms north of the sea like Fuyu (Puyo), Woju, Bianhan (Pyonhan), and Chaoxian (Choson). [Not sure if this is an exaggeration, especially since Pyonhan was at the southern tip of the Korean peninsula.]

In the reign of Zhongzong (705-709), Imperial Censor Zhang Xingji was sent to reopen relations with them, and Zuorong sent a son to the imperial court. In 713, envoys were sent to enfeoff Zuorong as Left Grand General of the Elite Guards and Prince of Bohai Prefecture (Bohai junwang), and his territory was incorporated into the empire as Huhanzhou province, with Zuorong himself as Commander-in-Chief (Dudu) of Huhanzhou. [So the Tang gave him an official title to recognise his de facto autonomy.] From then on, the kingdom discarded the name of Malgal and called itself only as Bohai [the name given by Tang].

[Yun]

Continued...

In 719, Zuorong died, and his kingdom privately [i.e. without Tang approval] gave him the posthumous title of Gaowang (High King). His son Wuyi became ruler and expanded the state's territory, and the various barbarians of the northeast were awed into submission to him. He privately changed the reign title to Ren'an. Tang Xuanzong gave him the right to inherit the princedom and other posts held by Zuorong. Before long, the Heishui Malgal sent ambassadors to the Tang court, and Tang Xuanzong established Heishuizhou Province in their land, with an Administrator (Zhangshi) to oversee matters there. Wuyi gathered his subordinates and discussed this: "At first the Heishui passed through our land to have relations with the Tang. When they wanted Tang troops to help them guard against the Turkut, they would first consult me. But this time they requested a Tang official in their land without telling me, so obviously they want to combine with the Tang to attack me from front and back." He ordered his younger brother Menyi and his uncle Renyaxiang to lead an army to attack the Heishui. Menyi had been to the Tang capital before [he may be the son whom Zuorong sent to the court], and knew the power of the Tang, and so he told Wuyi: "If we attack the Heishui after they have requested a Tang official, that would be turning against the Tang. The Tang is a big country with ten thousand times more soldiers than we, and if we become enemies with them, we will surely be destroyed. Back then Koguryo was at its peak and had 300,000 troops, and when it resisted the Tang it could be considered a strong state. But once the Tang army arrived, it swept the place clean. Today, our forces are only a third as many as Koguryo's, and if Your Highness wants to defy the Tang it would be impossible."

Wuyi did not listen, and when the Bohai army under Menyi was getting close to the land of the Heishui, Menyi wrote another letter to urge Wuyi against it. Wuyi was enraged and sent his cousin Yitai to replace Menyi. He recalled Menyi, intending to execute him. Menyi was afraid and fled to Tang by another route. The court appointed him as Left General of the Elite Guards [his father's old post]. Wuyi then sent an envoy to "expose" Menyi's crimes to the court, requesting that he be executed. Tang Xuanzong then issued an edict exiling Menyi to Anxi (the Tarim Basin), intending to tell Wuyi: "Menyi took refuge with me under desperate circumstances, and it would not be good for me to kill him. I have sent him to a desolate region." But he kept Wuyi's envoy in the capital and did not send him back, while ordering the Junior Ministers of Tributary Relations (Honglu Shaoqing), Li Daosui and Yuan Fu, to draft a more formal edict for Wuyi.

Wuyi found out about this, and sent a letter to Tang Xuanzong criticising him: "Your Majesty should not display his arrogance to all under heaven." The implication was that Menyi must die. Xuanzong was angry with Li Daosui and Yuan Fu for leaking out the details to Wuyi's envoy, and had them sacked. He then replied to Wuyi's demand with a formal reprimand for Menyi.

In 722, Wuyi sent his general Zhang Wenxiu to lead pirates on a raid of Dengzhou (on the Shandong peninsula), and Xuanzong then hurriedly sent Menyi to lead the troops from Youzhou to attack Bohai, while sending Minister of Transport Jin Silan to Silla as an ambassador to coordinate a simultaneous Silla attack on Bohai from the south. [this was the Bohai attack on Tang that GJ mentioned - in 722, not 732. Lee Ki-baik's book was mistaken on the date.] However, it was a very cold winter with a huge snowfall, and more than half of the Tang soldiers froze to death. The Tang army withdrew without achieving anything. [This was the campaign which caused the death of the father of Snowybeagle's character in the RPG thread.]


Wuyi, being unable to secure the execution of his brother Menyi by the Tang court, recruited an assassin to go to Luoyang and murder Menyi on the streets. But Menyi fought off the assassin and escaped death. The assassin was arrested in Henan and executed.

Wuyi died and was privately given the title of Wuwang (martial king). His son Qinmao became ruler and changed the reign title to Daxing. Xuanzong issued an edict for him to inherit all his father's titles and posts, and Qinmao then issued an amnesty in his kingdom. At the end of the Tianbao reign (the 750s), Qinmao shifted his capital to Shangjing, 300 li east of the Huhan River in the former Malgal lands. Throughout the reign of Xuanzong, there were 29 embassies of tribute from Bohai to the Tang. In 762 (the first year of Suzong's reign), the Tang court issued an edict officially making Bohai a kingdom, with Qinmao as king (not just prince). Qinmao's rank was raised to Grand Marshal of the Inspectorate (Jianxiao Taiwei).

From 766-779, there were 25 tribute missions to the Tang court from Bohai. A total of 11 Japanese dancing girls were given to the Tang court by Bohai throughout this time. [this suggests that Bohai either had relations with Japan, or was raiding the Japanese coast.]

[Gubook Janggoon]

I actually got the attack date from Wiki...


As for the Girls....IIRC Barhae was very buddy buddy with Japan because they felt surrounded. All the better for the Tang emperor eh?