11 replies to this topic

[Intranetusa]

I know the Eastern Han had a diverse range of cavalry, ranging from light cavalry archers to medium to heavily-armed heavy cavalry lancers.

Did they have super-heavy cavalry such as the fully armored cataphracts? The physical evidence for cataphracts first comes from late Jin or Northern Wei period. Could the late Han Dynasty have had
cataphracts, or is there currently no archeological evidence for this?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I know the Eastern Han had a diverse range of cavalry, ranging from light cavalry archers to medium to heavily-armed heavy cavalry lancers.

Did they have super-heavy cavalry such as the fully armored cataphracts? The physical evidence for cataphracts first comes from late Jin or Northern Wei period. Could the late Han Dynasty have had
cataphracts, or is there currently no archeological evidence for this?

I read some sources saying that heavy cavalry first began during late Eastern Han dynasty, but bulk of development (i.e. heavy cavalry became the main force) of heavy cavalry was during 3 kingdoms and age of fragmentation period. But the heavy cavalry during late Eastern Han dynasty are most likely not "cataphracts". They are heavily armoured cavalry (with horse armour, saddle) fought with short lances or swords, but they have not yet reached the ''extreme" cataphracts.

My argument for the lack of cataphracts during late Eastern Han was because stirrup (an important component) for heavy long lance cataphracts was not yet invented during Han dynasty. Stirrup was only invented in China during Eastern Jin dynasty (age of fragmentation period). Stirrup was important for lance combat, as you need to balance and support your feet when trusting/charging the lance at the enemy with full force. Thus, cataphracts only appeared in China during Age of fragmentation period. Cataphracts during age of fragmentation were known as "Jiaqi Juzhuang 甲骑具装 "

. The Eastern Han heavy cavalry were equipped with iron horse armour, short-range lance, sword as well as crossbows. Other optional weapons included ring shank long iron sword, cavalry halbertiers (ma ji 马戟). It can be used for hacking during cavalry charge. The typical cavalry halbertiers (ma ji 马戟) is about 37cm and a total length of 2m.

Currently, there are currently no archaeological excavation to be found about heavy cavalry from the Han dynasty. The Han terrocotta at Xu Zhou museum shows mostly light cavalry.

Anyway, here are some artist concept of Han cavalry


Western Han light cavalry with Ji-weapon (above)


Western Han medium cavalry with Spear (above)


Eastern Han heavy cavalry with Spear (Above)

Note there are no stirrups in Han cavalry.

Source:
http://wenwen.soso.c.../q168121622.htm
http://hi.baidu.com/...83a71e1277.html

[Intranetusa]

I see. A few more questions though - what is the difference between fully armored heavy cavalry (including horses) and cataphracts?

I was under the assumption cataphracts were just heavy cavalry in which the horse was armored as well.

Are there more sources (especially in English) regarding heavy cavalry of the Eastern Han era? Is there period documentation of the heavy cavalry used during the time?

thanks

[Intranetusa]

. The Eastern Han heavy cavalry were equipped with iron horse armour, short-range lance, sword as well as crossbows. Other optional weapons included ring shank long iron sword, cavalry halbertiers (ma ji 马戟). It can be used for hacking during cavalry charge. The typical cavalry halbertiers (ma ji 马戟) is about 37cm and a total length of 2m.

I see. Are there any historical documentations, murals, etc of the iron horse armor? Or is it mostly inferred from 2ndary sources or such?


Great pics btw.

[Mei Houwang]

The first picture have abundant evidence from Han terra cotta figurines. Most Han cavalry were depicted as such. The second one is a certain possibility, there are evidence of such armor, although I haven't seen it worn by cavalrymen. However, I must point out that I haven't seen any evidence that points to the existence of anything like the third picture(Eastern Han heavy cavalry with Spear). This is something I expect to see from the Jin dynasty(300 AD) at earliest, not the Han dynasty. Some evidence would be appreciated.

[General_Zhaoyun]

I see. A few more questions though - what is the difference between fully armored heavy cavalry (including horses) and cataphracts?

The differences are that heavy cavalry of Eastern Han does not have complete horse equipment such as stirrup, whereas a cataphract of Age of fragmentation period has stirrup.

Below show the stirrup excavated from the age of fragmentation period



Below show the pictures of han terrocotta figurine (of light cavalry). Notice they do not have stirrups.




Below show the pictures and artist concepts of Cataphracts from Age of fragmenation period. Notice that they have stirrups.

[General_Zhaoyun]

However, I must point out that I haven't seen any evidence that points to the existence of anything like the third picture(Eastern Han heavy cavalry with Spear). This is something I expect to see from the Jin dynasty(300 AD) at earliest, not the Han dynasty. Some evidence would be appreciated.

I found the third picture from the internet. But yes, I also suspect the third picture looks more like the cataphracts of 3rd century.. would require more research for evidence to validate that artist concept.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Though movies are not good historical sources, John Woo's Red Cliff movies does give you a brief glimpse of late Eastern Han cavalry. I think the light cavalry armour and weapons in the movie are historically accurate.

Below is a short video clip of fearsome late Eastern Han cavalry.

[TheAznValedictorian]

Just some minor corrections to GZ's good posts.

I read some sources saying that heavy cavalry first began during late Eastern Han dynasty, but bulk of development (i.e. heavy cavalry became the main force) of heavy cavalry was during 3 kingdoms and age of fragmentation period. But the heavy cavalry during late Eastern Han dynasty are most likely not "cataphracts". They are heavily armoured cavalry (with horse armour, saddle) fought with short lances or swords, but they have not yet reached the ''extreme" cataphracts.

My argument for the lack of cataphracts during late Eastern Han was because stirrup (an important component) for heavy long lance cataphracts was not yet invented during Han dynasty. Stirrup was only invented in China during Eastern Jin dynasty (age of fragmentation period). Stirrup was important for lance combat, as you need to balance and support your feet when trusting/charging the lance at the enemy with full force. Thus, cataphracts only appeared in China during Age of fragmentation period. Cataphracts during age of fragmentation were known as "Jiaqi Juzhuang 甲骑具装 "

. The Eastern Han heavy cavalry were equipped with iron horse armour, short-range lance, sword as well as crossbows. Other optional weapons included ring shank long iron sword, cavalry halbertiers (ma ji 马戟). It can be used for hacking during cavalry charge. The typical cavalry halbertiers (ma ji 马戟) is about 37cm and a total length of 2m.

Currently, there are currently no archaeological excavation to be found about heavy cavalry from the Han dynasty. The Han terrocotta at Xu Zhou museum shows mostly light cavalry.

Anyway, here are some artist concept of Han cavalry


Western Han light cavalry with Ji-weapon (above)


Western Han medium cavalry with Spear (above)


Eastern Han heavy cavalry with Spear (Above)

Note there are no stirrups in Han cavalry.

Source:
http://wenwen.soso.c.../q168121622.htm
http://hi.baidu.com/...83a71e1277.html

1. Stirrups are not neccessary for the existence of cataphracts. As an example, the Parthians had already used cataphracts before the advent of the stirrups.
2. I would say that the second picture is actually a picture of a Heavy Cavalryman, since a Roman Heavy Cavalryman is equally as armored (with an addition of a shield). Actually, a Roman Heavy Cavalryman might have been even less armored, since I have never seen them having full leg protections.
3. And finally, I think the first picture should actually be labelled as " Medium Cavalryman". The Light Cavalrymen would just be some units like the horse archers/light lancers, where they wear only robes.

Edited by TheAznValedictorian, 30 May 2010 - 01:12 AM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Just some minor corrections to GZ's good posts.


1. Stirrups are not neccessary for the existence of cataphracts. As an example, the Parthians had already used cataphracts before the advent of the stirrups.
2. I would say that the second picture is actually a picture of a Heavy Cavalryman, since a Roman Heavy Cavalryman is equally as armored (with an addition of a shield). Actually, a Roman Heavy Cavalryman might have been even less armored, since I have never seen them having full leg protections.
3. And finally, I think the first picture should actually be labelled as " Medium Cavalryman". The Light Cavalrymen would just be some units like the horse archers/light lancers, where they wear only robes.

Thanks for the correction.. TheAznValedictorian

[Intranetusa]

Aye, light cavalry are usually skirmishers or horse archers. Medium cavalry can engage in melee.
The 1st picture qualifies as either light or medium cavalry.

The second picture of the soldier in bronze lamellar and partially armored horse can qualify as medium/heavy cavalry.
I guess it depends on usage of the term medium or heavy - (heavy as shock cavalry/charging lancers?)

And the fulled armored 3rd pic are heavy cavalry/cataphracts.


So far, what I'm hearing is the 1st and 2nd type did indeed exist during the Han era. Whereas the 3rd type, there is on archeological evidence for the Jin era about a century after the Han?

Is this because there isn't evidence of complete horse armors found during the Han era?

[Intranetusa]

Bump.

Another question - were shields common for the cavalry? If not, with powerful recurved bows and recurved crossbows so widespread, why weren't more cavalry equipped with shields? (I'd understand if they were lancer units and thus needed to hands to hold their long spear/lance)