18 replies to this topic

[Freddy1]

So were animals ever used in Ancient Chinese warfare?
I know India & Rome's enemy Hannibla have used elephants in their wars. (I heard their are Chinese elephants but they are very very rare now.) Were they ever used in warfare?

How about carrier pigeons? Were they ever used to send messages.

Were venomous snakes or scorpions or bees ever used? (Like thrown at enemy camps to cause havoc)


How about trained monkeys? I heard during WW2 dogs planted with antitank devices were trained to go torwards enemy tanks and distroy them (I believe the project wasnt too successful).

[WuXiaHer0]

How about them horses eh? Just joking... Other than horses, I'm not sure. I've heard of hunters in ancient China using falcons to hunt prey. I don't think that count in this topic. There were no rabbits in a battlefield... Carrier pigeons were used extensively in sending secret messages, but as for warfare, I'm not sure again. Somehow, I get the feeling that the ancient Chinese were less likely to use animals in warfare. They didn't know how to train them and there were not many animals in China that proved to be useful. In fact, most of the animals appeared on the dinner table instead of the battlefield, if you get what I mean...

[Honam]

How about them horses eh? Just joking... Other than horses, I'm not sure. I've heard of hunters in ancient China using falcons to hunt prey. I don't think that count in this topic. There were no rabbits in a battlefield... Carrier pigeons were used extensively in sending secret messages, but as for warfare, I'm not sure again. Somehow, I get the feeling that the ancient Chinese were less likely to use animals in warfare. They didn't know how to train them and there were not many animals in China that proved to be useful. In fact, most of the animals appeared on the dinner table instead of the battlefield, if you get what I mean...

According to the Shiji, the Yellow Emperor trained bears, tigers and other savage animals for the battlefield, but in case this has any historical basis, the general assumption is that these names of animals referred to military units who may have used these names or, maybe, representations of such animals.
There was also some kind of tactic consisting on stampeding animals, sometimes with their tails burning. Needham reports this was "practised from remote antiquity" (as it usually happens with Needham, "use at your own risk").

[WuXiaHer0]

There was also some kind of tactic consisting on stampeding animals, sometimes with their tails burning. Needham reports this was "practised from remote antiquity" (as it usually happens with Needham, "use at your own risk").

What kind of animals?

[Honam]

What kind of animals?

Oxen. If I don't get it wrong, they dressed the oxen in red-painted clothes and decorated them like battle-horses (or dragons?), tied up knives in their horns and hemp in their tails. At night, after burning the hemp, the oxen will feel the heat and, angry, head against the enemy -who will think they were horses (or dragons?).

田單乃收城中得千餘牛，為絳繒衣，畫以五彩龍文，束兵刃於其角，而灌脂束葦於尾，燒其端。鑿城數十穴，夜縱牛，壯士五千人隨其后。牛尾熱，怒而奔燕軍，燕軍夜大驚。牛尾炬火光明炫燿，燕軍視之皆龍文，所觸盡死傷。

Needham also quotes two Russian authors on the use of these techiniques in modern Chinese conflicts (note a).

Note: after checking dictionary, it seems that 龍文 here refers to dragons (or dragon-like design). However, maybe battle horses were also "decorated" this way (no idea), so I maintain both in the translation.

Edited by Honam, 27 June 2010 - 09:14 AM.

[WuXiaHer0]

Oxen. If I don't get it wrong, they dressed the oxen in red-painted clothes and decorated them like battle-horses (or dragons?), tied up knives in their horns and hemp in their tails. At night, after burning the hemp, the oxen will feel the heat and, angry, head against the enemy -who will think they were horses (or dragons?).

All hell will break loose... :frantic:

Needham also quotes two Russian authors on the use of these techiniques in modern Chinese conflicts (note a).

Note: after checking dictionary, it seems that 龍文 here refers to dragons (or dragon-like design). However, maybe battle horses were also "decorated" this way (no idea), so I maintain both in the translation.

Perhaps those stampeding oxen which came charging at the Yan soldiers looked like, well, angry dragons? I recall seeing Chinese dragons having a tuft or fur/fire at the end of their tails.

Edited by WuXiaHer0, 27 June 2010 - 09:26 AM.

[Honam]

All hell will break loose... :frantic:


Perhaps those stampeding oxen which came stampeding at the Yan soldiers looked like, well, angry dragons? I recall seeing Chinese dragons having a tuft or fur/fire at the end of their tails.

Yes, the red-clothed and painted oxen with knives by horns and a flame-like tail would resemble dragons, but I don´t know if their intention was for them to look like dragons, or to look like horses that looked like dragons... depends on how war horses where dressed in those times.

[WuXiaHer0]

Yes, the red-clothed and painted oxen with knives by horns and a flame-like tail would resemble dragons, but I don´t know if their intention was for them to look like dragons, or to look like horses that looked like dragons... depends on how war horses where dressed in those times.

Dragons are intimidating creatures. Why bother decorating the oxen to look like horses?
Horses don't have horns and therefore, they don't resemble dragons.

The ancients valued horses. They traded horses with tea and many precious materials like silk, coins, etc. It pained them to set fire to the horses' tails.

Edited by WuXiaHer0, 27 June 2010 - 09:52 AM.

[Honam]

Dragons are intimidating creatures. Why bother decorating the oxen to look like horses?
Horses don't have horns and therefore, they don't resemble dragons.

The ancients valued horses. They traded horses with tea and many precious materials like silk, coins, etc. It pained them to set fire to the horses' tails.

Because horses could have been decorated like dragons in the battlefield, with saddles and other instruments, even adding something to their tails to frighten the enemy. If so (I don't know how horses were "dressed" in Zhou-Han times), the tactic against Yan could be to make them believe thousands of horses were going against them, when in fact they were just oxens. I've checked, and 龍文, however, doesn't seem to refer to anything else but dragons in other passages of the Shiji, so I would rather accept "they dressed the oxen in red-painted clothes and decorated them like dragons"

Edited by Honam, 27 June 2010 - 10:38 AM.

[mohistManiac]

I have seen the movie Swordsman 2 where some ethnic groups in China (perhaps the Hmong, the Miao) used venom from snakes for attack as well as calling out snakes by the use of a flute to lure them out and descend upon the enemy. In the movie the main character also kills a scorpion puts it in his wine jug and remarks to himself that the wine will become tastier and more potent.

Edited by mohistManiac, 27 June 2010 - 12:58 PM.

[Intranetusa]

Elephants were indeed used for warfare by the ancient Chinese kingdoms.

But like the Romans (who also sometimes, but very rarely employed elephants), they mostly fought against elephants.

[kiwimeetskiwi]

So were animals ever used in Ancient Chinese warfare?
I know India & Rome's enemy Hannibla have used elephants in their wars. (I heard their are Chinese elephants but they are very very rare now.) Were they ever used in warfare?

How about carrier pigeons? Were they ever used to send messages.

Were venomous snakes or scorpions or bees ever used? (Like thrown at enemy camps to cause havoc)


How about trained monkeys? I heard during WW2 dogs planted with antitank devices were trained to go torwards enemy tanks and distroy them (I believe the project wasnt too successful).

Actually, dogs were trained to go near enemy tanks, which would run them over, and set off the explosive device strapped to their neck.

[crabdonut]

I seem to recall reading something that said China did use Elephants a few times but it escapes me at the moment where I had read it.

[babalakalin]

In fact, most of the animals appeared on the dinner table instead of the battlefield, if you get what I mean...

yes,i know what you mean.
and Mongolian used folcons.

[babalakalin]

Actually, dogs were trained to go near enemy tanks, which would run them over, and set off the explosive device strapped to their neck.

can you give the time and the event of this story about how dogs run enemy tanks? it makes my curiosity aroused.