16 replies to this topic

[allie]

I think Ip Man is the most overated martial art person in the world.

Ip Man merely teached Wing Chun but there was no evidence of him being a martial art expert as he did not win in any martial art competition or defeated any top martial art expert.

Whereas Bruce Lee and Huo Yuanjia defeated many top martial art experts and Bruce Lee won many martial art competition too so we can be sure that they are real martial art expert.

In fact, Ip Man could become famous is because of his student Bruce Lee. If there was no Bruce Lee, Ip Man will be a nobody

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Neither Bruce Lee nor Huo Yuanjia won many competitions. Bruce Lee won a boxing match, thats about it. He also later won a few challenges, but not tournaments. Also not participating in tournaments does not mean you are not a good fighter, since martial arts were not created for competition in the first place. Its like saying you need to win a beuaty contest to be beautiful.

[TiYiJian]

Neither Bruce Lee nor Huo Yuanjia won many competitions. Bruce Lee won a boxing match, thats about it. He also later won a few challenges, but not tournaments. Also not participating in tournaments does not mean you are not a good fighter, since martial arts were not created for competition in the first place. Its like saying you need to win a beuaty contest to be beautiful.

BL was against such things like tournaments, 'cause they are just sport and limitated the arsenal of a fighter.
However he enjoyed watching boxing matches very much; and i think he would enjoy watching today's MMA tournaments, if he were still alive.

[liuzg150181]

BL was against such things like tournaments, 'cause they are just sport and limitated the arsenal of a fighter.
However he enjoyed watching boxing matches very much; and i think he would enjoy watching today's MMA tournaments, if he were still alive.

Though not a BL fan myself,read some books by him and so far cant recall that BL was against tournaments,where did you get the source from?

ADD:Nvm,just googled that myself already.

Edited by liuzg150181, 09 July 2010 - 05:21 AM.

[allie]

Evidence to prove that Bruce Lee and Huo Yuanjia participated in alot of competitions and fights too.

As a matter of fact, this information can easily be obtained on the internet if you will just be willing to spend some time to google it even if you do not know anything about Bruce Lee at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

Long Beach International Karate Championships

At the invitation of Ed Parker, Lee appeared in the 1964 Long Beach International Karate Championships[31] and performed repetitions of two-finger pushups (using the thumb and the index finger) with feet at approximately a shoulder-width apart. In the same Long Beach event he also performed the "One inch punch",[32] the description of which is as follows: Lee stood upright, his right foot forward with knees bent slightly, in front of a standing, stationary partner. Lee's right arm was partly extended and his right fist approximately an inch away from the partner's chest. Without retracting his right arm, Lee then forcibly delivered the punch to his partner while largely maintaining his posture, sending the partner backwards and falling into a chair said to be placed behind the partner to prevent injury, though his partner's momentum soon caused him to fall to the floor. His volunteer was Bob Baker of Stockton, California. "I told Bruce not to do this type of demonstration again", Baker recalled. "When he punched me that last time, I had to stay home from work because the pain in my chest was unbearable."[33]

It was at the 1964 championships where Lee first met Taekwondo master Jhoon Goo Rhee. The two developed a friendship — a relationship from which they benefited as martial artists. Rhee taught Lee the side kick in detail, and Lee taught Rhee the "non-telegraphic" punch.[34]

Lee appeared at the 1967 Long Beach International Karate Championships and performed various demonstrations, including the famous "unstoppable punch" against USKA world Karate champion Vic Moore.[31] Lee told Moore that he was going to throw a straight punch to the face, and all he had to do was to try and block it. Lee took several steps back and asked if Moore was ready, when Moore nodded in affirmation, Lee glided towards him until he was within striking range. He then threw a straight punch directly at Moore's face, and stopped before impact. In eight attempts, Moore failed to block any of the punches.[35]
Fight history

Lee was involved in competitive fights, some of which were arranged while others were not. Dan Inosanto stated, "There's no doubt in my mind that if Bruce Lee had gone into pro boxing, he could easily have ranked in the top three in the lightweight division or junior-welterweight division."[36]

Lee defeated three-time champion British boxer Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships by using Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[37] Hawkings Cheung, his fellow Wing Chun street fighter, witnessed the event. Lee knocked-out Pu Chung, a Cai Li Fo fighter, in the roof tops of Hong Kong in a 1958 Full-Contact match. The match was refereed by Wong Shun Leung.[38][39]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result."[40] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 P.M. on Wednesday, April 29, 1959.[41]

In 1960 in Seattle, Lee backfisted and broke a man's nose after Lee saw him harassing a Chinese girl while Lee was taking a walk. This fight was witnessed by James DeMile in 1960.[citation needed]

In 1962, Lee knocked out Uechi, a Japanese black belt Karateka, in 11 seconds in a 1962 Full-Contact match in Seattle. It was refereed by Jesse Glover. The incident took place in Seattle at a YMCA handball court. Taki Kamura says the battle lasted 10 seconds in contrary to Harts statement.[42] Ed Hart states "The karate man arrived in his gi (uniform), complete with black belt, while Bruce showed up in his street clothes and simply took off his shoes. The fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him."[43] The fight ended by Bruce knocking Uechi the length of the gymnasium.[44]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese; when he refused to comply he was challenged to a combat match with their top fighter Wong Jack Man.[40] Wong had mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and Tai chi chuan while being a direct student of Ma Kin Fung. The arrangement was that if Lee lost he would have to shut down his school, if he won then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[40] Wong denies this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theater[45], and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[46] However, contrary to this claimed motive is the signed formal letter manifested by Dan Chan with signatures by the martial art community, including Chan and Wong, as a petitioned document by the community does not correspond to the motive of responding to an open challenge.[original research?] "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me." — Bruce Lee[47]

Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[48] Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation) and William Chen, a teacher of Tai chi chuan. According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Bruce. "The fight ensued, it was a no holds barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up." — Linda Lee Cadwell[40]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch[49]. Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[50]

Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter." Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "damned good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[51]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[52] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his a** with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly." — Bob Wall[53]

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Huo_Yuanjia

n 1890, a martial artist from Henan visited the Huo family and had a fight with Huo's older brother. Huo's brother was defeated and to the surprise of the family, Huo fought against his brother's opponent and defeated him. Because Huo proved that he was physically able to practice wushu, his father accepted him as a disciple. In later years, Huo went on to challenge martial artists from neighboring lands and his fame grew as he defeated more and more opponents in bouts.

Huo joined his father at work as a caravan guard. One day, while escorting a group of monks, Huo was confronted by an aggressive bandit leader who threatened to attack the monks with his bandit followers. Huo fought against the bandit leader and defeated him. News of his feat spread and added on to his growing fame

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

None of the sources you've provided showed that Bruce Lee participated in any tournament, there were a few personal challenges, and that is about it. As for the Karate challenges, I would need some first hand accounts here to support that claim. The same goes with Huo Yuanjia, he won a few local lei tai matches. We have no idea whether some of the claims are true or not. Even today there are Chinese martial artists who claim that they fought and defeated groups of bandits.

Honestly speaking, Bruce Lee only got famous because he moved to America, he hasn't learned all of the Wing chun techniques yet. In terms of sheer competition, people like Wang Xiangzhai(founder of Yi Quan) and Zhang Dongsheng (founder of modern Chinese shuai jiao) have a better record of defeating foreign fighters such as Boxers or Judokas.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 22 August 2010 - 11:31 AM.

[TiYiJian]

None of the sources you've provided showed that Bruce Lee participated in any tournament, there were a few personal challenges, and that is about it. As for the Karate challenges, I would need some first hand accounts here to support that claim. The same goes with Huo Yuanjia, he won a few local lei tai matches. We have no idea whether some of the claims are true or not. Even today there are Chinese martial artists who claim that they fought and defeated groups of bandits.

Honestly speaking, Bruce Lee only got famous because he moved to America, he hasn't learned all of the Wing chun techniques yet. In terms of sheer competition, people like Wang Xiangzhai(founder of Yi Quan) and Zhang Dongsheng (founder of modern Chinese shuai jiao) have a better record of defeating foreign fighters such as Boxers or Judokas.

BL was just a beginner in WC. Even though he trained with great martial artists such as YM and WSL, he did it for less than 5 years.
He only learned the SLT and some of the chumkiu, his level was far from being high.
He grew moving to the states, where he discovered new styles and people. The challenging fact was the size of some of the Americans, that's the reason why BL developed so powerful punches

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

As I stated before in the past, the concept of mixing different martial arts together to create new ones is nothing new. It is present since the beginning of fighting history and is what pushes martial arts to develop. It is going on in many countries like Japan, China, and Russia in the early 20th century, Japanese Karatekas of the time often have training in Judo as well. Chinese martial artists also usually cross train in many styles of CMA. Zhang Dongsheng, incorporated wrestling techniques from all over China, including Mongolian and even Muslim wrestling and founded modern "Chinese wrestling"(zhongguo shi shuaijiao), which is really mixing the wrestling techniques of different nationalities across China's border. Russian Sambo is also a Russian attempt at incorporating Judo, other Asian wrestling techniques and indigenous Russian techniques into one. So what Bruce Lee is doing is nothing unique. He just have the chance to get in more contact with western and Japanese styles than most Chinese martial arts masters of the time.

[allie]

None of the sources you've provided showed that Bruce Lee participated in any tournament, there were a few personal challenges, and that is about it. As for the Karate challenges, I would need some first hand accounts here to support that claim. The same goes with Huo Yuanjia, he won a few local lei tai matches. We have no idea whether some of the claims are true or not. Even today there are Chinese martial artists who claim that they fought and defeated groups of bandits.

Honestly speaking, Bruce Lee only got famous because he moved to America, he hasn't learned all of the Wing chun techniques yet. In terms of sheer competition, people like Wang Xiangzhai(founder of Yi Quan) and Zhang Dongsheng (founder of modern Chinese shuai jiao) have a better record of defeating foreign fighters such as Boxers or Judokas.

Going by your logic, we can also say that we do not know the claims about Zhang Dongsheng and Wang Xiangzhai are true or not because even today there are Chinese martial artists who claim that they fought and defeated groups of bandits.

Bruce Lee got famous not because he moved to America but because he won martial art competition, taught martial art and produced martial art movies.

[TiYiJian]

Bruce Lee got famous not because he moved to America but because he won martial art competition, taught martial art and produced martial art movies.

BL only won boxing amateurish matches in HK before going to america...
He then just gave a demonstration at the Long Beach tournament, he did not compete. It is due to this that a famous hair stylist introduced him to the producers of the Green Hornet and he slowly got popular among americans and then he returned to HK.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Going by your logic, we can also say that we do not know the claims about Zhang Dongsheng and Wang Xiangzhai are true or not because even today there are Chinese martial artists who claim that they fought and defeated groups of bandits.

Bruce Lee got famous not because he moved to America but because he won martial art competition, taught martial art and produced martial art movies.

Not really, Zhang Dongsheng and Wang Xiangzhai's fights are much better documented. And the latter fought some international fighters of some caliber. For example Wang defeated a lightweight Olympic boxing champion from Hungary in an instant. He also defeated Sawai, a fifth degree black belt Judoka from Japan in one strike. Sawai even wrote a memoir which confirmed this fight. He later moved to Japan and founded the art of Taikiken borrowing many techniques from Yiquan. Zhang Dongsheng was also recorded to have beaten some top level black belt judokas, although these early accounts are hard to confirm.

[ctrlsave]

I think Ip man was never collectively called the best fighter or anything?? He was a master of Wing Chun and that is undisputable. Part of the reason why we are here talking about wing chun is because of this man who promoted wing chun to many parts of the world. So i don't think he was overrated, if one needs to take part in tournaments then people like Huang Fei Hong would be discredited no?

[LinDynasty]

I think Ip Man is the most overated martial art person in the world.

Ip Man merely teached Wing Chun but there was no evidence of him being a martial art expert as he did not win in any martial art competition or defeated any top martial art expert.

Whereas Bruce Lee and Huo Yuanjia defeated many top martial art experts and Bruce Lee won many martial art competition too so we can be sure that they are real martial art expert.

In fact, Ip Man could become famous is because of his student Bruce Lee. If there was no Bruce Lee, Ip Man will be a nobody

I believe Ye Wen (葉問; 叶问) was very well known within the Chinese Communities, especially in Foshan and Hong Kong. He is actually under-rated as a martial artist for his time. Not every Martial Artist wants fame and glory, there are those who just want to live a simple life and teach what they know for a living. Remember, without Ye Wen's training, Bruce Lee would not have been who he was.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Really, both Yip Man and Bruce Lee are only famous because they spread their MA to the Western Audience. Neither one of them are popular in China itself until the past 20 years. Most Chinese in the mainland never even heard of Bruce Lee until after 2000 because of the TV series; "legend of Bruce Lee". Even less people heard of Yip Man or Wingchun, even within the MA community since Wingchun is a very uncommon style that is largely restricted to HongKong and overseas.

People who are famous in China itself are people like Huo Yuanjia, and most MA experts know Zhang Dongsheng， Wang Xiangzhai，and the Chen family because Shuai jiao, Yiquan, and Taiji are the two most popular traditional Chinese Ma in mainland China before 2000.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 01 September 2010 - 02:30 AM.

[TiYiJian]

Wing Chun is clearly derived from the Fujian Baihequan, even though the legend says it was created by this Ng Mui, mixing various shaolin techniques (just BS).
It's not popular in China even now, only in the Guangdong area... Recently, due to the promotion of BL's image in mailand China, WC is beginning to have more popularity.
Yes,Shuai Jiao and Taiji are the most widely practised arts in China (i don't think Yiquan is so much popular, of course everyone knows about it); others being the other 2 internal styles, Hung gar and Choy lay fut in southern China are the most popular (not like wing chun).
"shaolin" isjust a modern wushu thing, nothing to do with real shaolin, real tradition, real chan buddhism, it's just a tourist site. The monks cannot fight, but are masters at performing taolus (just like dancers), they try meditating and all those stuff...everybody know about shaolin , but no real MA gives a d**** about it.