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The myth of an exceptional Rome; and how this relates to China


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#46 William O'Chee

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:19 AM

The degree of cultural sophistication and pride has little to do with whether a state is sedentary or nomadic. Many sedentary people has organizations that are even less complex than those of the nomads, and were often poorer.
While China had lots of steppe people on its border, it is by no means the Celestial empire's only neighbours nor were nomads the only people who built empires in China. In fact, two of the five "barbarians", the Qiang and the Di, who settled in China during the Age of Fragmentation were sedentary, and they were also far more easily assimilated into the Chinese population than the nomadic Xiongnu and Xianbei. In fact the latter two were the people that had the strongest sense of identity and were often scornful towards the sedentary Han people.

This is essentially correct. Steppes nomads tended to have better technology than sedentary people. An example was metallurgy. Superior metalworking skills were needed to create the harness needed to work horses properly, and this is what made it possible for steppe nomads to work large herds effectively over significant distances.

The assumption that sedentary people were technically superior is largely a reflection of our world not theirs.

#47 William O'Chee

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:28 AM

One new thing I can point out regarding Rome was that it was a intensive sea-faring empire. It's actually very hard to control and maintain your rule over places separated by large bodies of water. Even the Western colonial powers, like Great Britain or Spain, in their peak had trouble with this issue. One thing that gets overlooked is how dependent they were on the rule and stability maintain by local authorities rather than the Imperial one. When I mean local authorities, it means both official and unofficial, which includes the powers not recognized by the Empire. My guess is that the Romans were a bit too controlling in this sense. There was little room for accepting or just allowing any existence and mention of anyone or any group that wouldn't displayed their outright loyalty to Rome. Which is probably why if you all look at it carefully, Rome from it's beginning to end, was in constant conflict and never had substantial peace with it's subjects.

Actually, this is a fair point. Rome was dependent on seaborne trade through the Mediterranean in particular. Most significantly, after defeating Carthage, the North African provinces became the bread basket of the empire (so much so that when these territories were lost to barbarian invasion, the empire soon collapsed, and people deserted Rome because there was no longer any corn dole.

But the Mediterranean was a fickle sea, and navigation was difficult in certain times of the year. Read the Aneid, for example, to see how this was so. In fact it remained so right up to the 16th century.

#48 mohistManiac

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:17 PM

Actually, this is a fair point. Rome was dependent on seaborne trade through the Mediterranean in particular. Most significantly, after defeating Carthage, the North African provinces became the bread basket of the empire (so much so that when these territories were lost to barbarian invasion, the empire soon collapsed, and people deserted Rome because there was no longer any corn dole.

But the Mediterranean was a fickle sea, and navigation was difficult in certain times of the year. Read the Aneid, for example, to see how this was so. In fact it remained so right up to the 16th century.


I argue somewhat otherwise. Rome was always more of an agriculturally based society unlike the Phonecians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Trojans and others more tactically based upon the coastlines of their regions. Ever notice that these coastal empires were much more loosely based, smaller, stretched thinly than when compared to larger sedentary empires? They occupy what could be seen as one half of the nomadic demographic in world population living under the notions of travel and migration based on ship travel instead of riding on horse despite apparently having conducted themselves inside city walls. Even the Greeks who were supposedly a great sea peoples ended up controlling a less than decent portion of land, patchwork comes to mind until it was Alexander that gave them a truly solid empire. But Alexander was from Macedonia and being further inland thought differently about empire. Sea empire usually deal with trade and their network are tactical to seeking trends of income and ways of surviving away from predatory outsiders that they are rarely made aware of larger ambitions away from the piecemeal dominance of the coastlines. It was no terrific feat that Rome could conquer all these comparatively small and defenseless places. Even the Punic wars were fought by underdeveloped Roman ships against a water savvy people of the Carthaginians and the Romans still won.

Edited by mohistManiac, 30 September 2010 - 10:19 PM.

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#49 William O'Chee

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:05 PM

I argue somewhat otherwise. Rome was always more of an agriculturally based society unlike the Phonecians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Trojans and others more tactically based upon the coastlines of their regions. Ever notice that these coastal empires were much more loosely based, smaller, stretched thinly than when compared to larger sedentary empires? They occupy what could be seen as one half of the nomadic demographic in world population living under the notions of travel and migration based on ship travel instead of riding on horse despite apparently having conducted themselves inside city walls. Even the Greeks who were supposedly a great sea peoples ended up controlling a less than decent portion of land, patchwork comes to mind until it was Alexander that gave them a truly solid empire. But Alexander was from Macedonia and being further inland thought differently about empire. Sea empire usually deal with trade and their network are tactical to seeking trends of income and ways of surviving away from predatory outsiders that they are rarely made aware of larger ambitions away from the piecemeal dominance of the coastlines. It was no terrific feat that Rome could conquer all these comparatively small and defenseless places. Even the Punic wars were fought by underdeveloped Roman ships against a water savvy people of the Carthaginians and the Romans still won.

I don't think we would disagree on Roman naval power, but...

I think there is a difference between being dependent on sea trade, and being a significant naval power. Roman military was built on citizen infantry. The cavalry was mainly drawn from auxiliaries (foederati) by the time of the Empire. The crucial role that the army played in building the Empire was recognised by the extension of citizenship to those who were not citizens, but who served in the military.

My point was, somewhat different though. Rome depended on sea trade to convey grains from the most fecund provinces, in North Africa and Egypt to Rome. I suggest you read "The INheritance of Rome" by Chris Wickham, who gives the most clear exposition I have seen as to the collapse of the Empire, and the importance of the bread basket of North Africa to maintaining the whole machinery of Empire.

Happy to discuss any contrary thoughts...!

#50 brightness

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:24 PM

I argue somewhat otherwise. Rome was always more of an agriculturally based society unlike the Phonecians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Trojans and others more tactically based upon the coastlines of their regions. Ever notice that these coastal empires were much more loosely based, smaller, stretched thinly than when compared to larger sedentary empires?


Rome came on the scene much later than Phenecians, Carthaginians, Greeks and Trojans. Some claim Romans descended from Trojans. The Empire that drove the center of Phonecian world from east Mediterrenean to Carthage was the Persian Empire. The various thalassocracy appeared "loosely based, smaller, stretched thinly" because they all had very small population. The very fact that they were "empires" at all was because their sea-born trade system was generating far greater wealth for them than farming would, especially on their own poor soil. It's like saying Brits had a very thinly spread empire compared to Russians and Chinese, but if the 10 million or so Brits circa 1800 had been on a continent, they would have been nobodies.

They occupy what could be seen as one half of the nomadic demographic in world population living under the notions of travel and migration based on ship travel instead of riding on horse despite apparently having conducted themselves inside city walls. Even the Greeks who were supposedly a great sea peoples ended up controlling a less than decent portion of land, patchwork comes to mind


Many Greek states started off with very poor and broken land to begin with. That's why some of the city states took to the seaborne trade. And through seaborne trade, at the peak of its power, Athens was controlling practically all the agricultural output of the Black Sea coast, the bread basket of Europe at that time.

The patchwork was what allowed various Greek city states to try their own things and find out what works . . . instead of say a Spartan Emperor enforcing a sea ban on the rest of Greece, as a way of protecting the price of agro products from Pelopennese.

until it was Alexander that gave them a truly solid empire. But Alexander was from Macedonia and being further inland thought differently about empire.


Alexander's universal empire lasted only a few years. There were only a dozen years from his becoming king of Macedonia to his death, when his empire fell apart. Not sure why that's called "truly solid empire." Although Alexander himself strived to leave his Greek subjects alone and not debase them with "oriental despotism" which his newly conquered Persia was bringing him, his universal empire did eventually bring to Greece the "oriental despotic" influences that Athens and Sparta fought so hard and succeeded against a couple hundred years earlier.

Sea empire usually deal with trade and their network are tactical to seeking trends of income and ways of surviving away from predatory outsiders that they are rarely made aware of larger ambitions away from the piecemeal dominance of the coastlines.


Yes, it's called profit motives and doing the sensible thing. Land empires do tend to suffer from megalomania more often. On rare occasions that might actually succeed temporarily, but most aspiring "kings of the world" inland never got anywhere despite drenching their subjects in rivers of blood. Some deep inland nomads seem to be afflicted even worse with this megalomania. When one only looks at the "successful" ones, the study would suffer from data point selection bias.


It was no terrific feat that Rome could conquer all these comparatively small and defenseless places. Even the Punic wars were fought by underdeveloped Roman ships against a water savvy people of the Carthaginians and the Romans still won.


Carthage was not defenseless. It had dominated the west Med for some 500 years before finally being vanquished by Rome, all while having a very small population (partly due to its child-sacrificing religion); it was founded by a small band of refugees from Phonecia only around 800BC on a small patch of "leased" land. Carthage lost the 1st Punic War because some dingbats in the Carthage senate decided to disband the navy in order to expand the empire inland in Africa (perhaps to get more farm land?). That's the most important among the three Punic wars, as that defeat meant Rome would be in control of the sea lines of communication in subsequent wars.

#51 Mei Houwang

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:16 AM

Carthage lost the 1st Punic War because some dingbats in the Carthage senate decided to disband the navy in order to expand the empire inland in Africa (perhaps to get more farm land?).


I know Hamilcar wanted to disband the fleet because he mistakenly thought the battle of Drepana was decisive, but I haven't heard that it had to do with him wanting to expand into the rest of Africa. Any additional info on this?

Also, Rome did defeat the Seleucid Empire which was much more decentralized as compared with Rome. What is your take on this?

#52 brightness

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:33 AM

I know Hamilcar wanted to disband the fleet because he mistakenly thought the battle of Drepana was decisive, but I haven't heard that it had to do with him wanting to expand into the rest of Africa. Any additional info on this?



=============================================================================
Hanno II the Great

Hanno the Great was a wealthy Carthaginian aristocrat in the 3rd century BC.

Hanno's wealth was based on the land he owned in Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, and during the First Punic War he led the faction in Carthage that was opposed to continuing the war against Roman Republic. He preferred to continue conquering territory in Africa rather than fight a naval war against Rome that would bring him no personal gain. In these efforts, he was opposed by the Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barca. Hanno demobilized the Carthaginian navy in 244 BC, giving Rome time to rebuild its navy and finally defeat Carthage by 241 BC.

After the war, Hanno refused to pay the mercenaries who had been promised money and rewards by Hamilcar. The mercenaries revolted, and Hanno took control of the Carthaginian army to attempt to defeat them. His attempt failed and he gave control of the army back to Hamilcar. Eventually, they both cooperated to crush the rebels in 238 BC.

His nickname "the Great" was apparently earned because of his conquests among the African enemies of Carthage,[citation needed] and he continued to oppose war with Rome, which would necessarily involve naval engagements. During the Second Punic War, he led the anti-war faction in Carthage, and is blamed for preventing reinforcements from being sent to Hamilcar's son Hannibal after his victory at the Battle of Cannae. After Carthage's defeat at the Battle of Zama in 202 BC, he was among the ambassadors to negotiate peace with the Romans.

=================================================================================


Also, Rome did defeat the Seleucid Empire which was much more decentralized as compared with Rome. What is your take on this?


Being decentralized in and of itself does not at all guarantee military strength (nothing really does except for military strength itself). Seleucid Empire was in effect a bunch of Greek generals running a Persian empire, having nothing to do with any thalassocracy at all.

#53 mariusj

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 02:49 AM

Being decentralized in and of itself does not at all guarantee military strength (nothing really does except for military strength itself).

Actually, if you just ask this rather simple scientific question of 'b/w two otherwise identical nation, if one was centralized and the other decentralized, who do you think have a stronger military?' The manpower available to the centralized nation will obviously be much greater then the decentralized.

There are other different aspects that will involve other areas such as logistic, geography, but I do think that in general the more centralized you are, the stronger your military is, despite the fact that there are several unique cases in history where though brilliance in other fields a more decentralized nation was able to overcome a centralized nation.

Carthage was not defenseless. It had dominated the west Med for some 500 years before finally being vanquished by Rome, all while having a very small population (partly due to its child-sacrificing religion);

I wouldn't even be certain that such religion exists. While many archeologists agree, plenty disagree. There are no conclusive and irrefutable evidence that Carthage have these programs.

#54 Mei Houwang

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 03:07 AM

Hanno II the Great

Hanno the Great was a wealthy Carthaginian aristocrat in the 3rd century BC.

Hanno's wealth was based on the land he owned in Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, and during the First Punic War he led the faction in Carthage that was opposed to continuing the war against Roman Republic. He preferred to continue conquering territory in Africa rather than fight a naval war against Rome that would bring him no personal gain. In these efforts, he was opposed by the Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barca. Hanno demobilized the Carthaginian navy in 244 BC, giving Rome time to rebuild its navy and finally defeat Carthage by 241 BC.

After the war, Hanno refused to pay the mercenaries who had been promised money and rewards by Hamilcar. The mercenaries revolted, and Hanno took control of the Carthaginian army to attempt to defeat them. His attempt failed and he gave control of the army back to Hamilcar. Eventually, they both cooperated to crush the rebels in 238 BC.

His nickname "the Great" was apparently earned because of his conquests among the African enemies of Carthage,[citation needed] and he continued to oppose war with Rome, which would necessarily involve naval engagements. During the Second Punic War, he led the anti-war faction in Carthage, and is blamed for preventing reinforcements from being sent to Hamilcar's son Hannibal after his victory at the Battle of Cannae. After Carthage's defeat at the Battle of Zama in 202 BC, he was among the ambassadors to negotiate peace with the Romans.


Hah, it sounds like the only thing Hanno was 'great' at was screwing Carthage over.

Being decentralized in and of itself does not at all guarantee military strength (nothing really does except for military strength itself). Seleucid Empire was in effect a bunch of Greek generals running a Persian empire, having nothing to do with any thalassocracy at all.


I'm putting in the Seleucid empire, not because I think it's a thalassocracy, which it isn't of course. I merely mentioned it because I read your post about how a disunified China did much better in the Second Sino-Japanese war as compared with the unified Qing during the First Sino-Japanese war. Like China during WW2(along with many other empires in the Middle East such as Parthia or the Achaemenid empire), the Seleucids were very decentralized and many areas were self-governing.

#55 Hohmann

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:52 PM

The purposes of this thread are very hard to assess because there is one fundamental differance that underline the entire situation... The reason it is so difficult to compare Rome with Han China is the fact the China is extremely provincial, it has always been; while the same is not true for the ancient Roman world which, in turn, make up a much more dynamic situation. ( This could be one of the reason why chinese culture is reluctant to change compared to the west).
---
One cant forget that the Roman world region saw many great empires at least as great as the chinese one...
Egypt for many years was the most powerful civilization on earth (starting around 3000 bc, far before Rome, Persia, China)
Mesopotamia saw the first civilzation, far before China, and it had a remarkable culture by itself.
Achaemenid Persia was, by far, the richest empire on earth and it was extremely impressive...Greece, macedon, Hittites among other.

---
All of this combined to form a system that was more dynamic than the chinese system simply because China was kept to itself.

#56 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 01:16 AM

All of this combined to form a system that was more dynamic than the chinese system simply because China was kept to itself.


Really, the whole idea that China is an isolated civilization has already been done to death in this forum. Lets not start again.

#57 Hohmann

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 08:12 AM

I dont mean a completed isolated civilization but there were certainly not as integrated as the middle east - india - europe axis... But the again, China was a great on its own and i have nothing but reverence for their history.

#58 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 08:57 AM

What is your definition of integration? Unless you have data in regard to the volume of trade conducted between Europe and India compared to that between India and China, I really don't think you can make such a claim.

#59 Hohmann

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 09:03 AM

What is your definition of integration? Unless you have data in regard to the volume of trade conducted between Europe and India compared to that between India and China, I really don't think you can make such a claim.


Cultural exchange.

AS far as my claim, it is not really my claim. Every Historian says that China was much more isolated than Europe-middle east and to a lesser extent India.
And this for obvious geographical reason.

#60 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 09:16 AM

Cultural exchange.

AS far as my claim, it is not really my claim. Every Historian says that China was much more isolated than Europe-middle east and to a lesser extent India.
And this for obvious geographical reason.


Which historian? This seem to be a theory that is circulating in the 60s-80s. I don't believe any serious scholars in recent years buy such a claim.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 09 January 2011 - 09:26 AM.





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