23 replies to this topic

[Sayoka]

One thing that I have noticed while browsing the internet is that I have not come across many information pertaining to the Manchu before the Qing Dynasty. Information on the Qing Dynasty is extensively documented and published and perhaps it is because of the grandeur of the Qing that overshadowed prior information or perhaps because the Manchu script was created near the beginning of the Qing Dynasty. This is somewhat frustrating as I want to learn more about their culture, beliefs, traditions, way of life etc. before they rose to power and became 'Hanized.'

Perhaps one of the biggest questions I have is what the origin of the queue is. This too is overshadowed by the mandatory act forcing the Han peoples to wear it, however I could find little information on the origin and significance it is to the Manchu people.

What would Manchu architecture look like?

What would Manchu fashion (non-ceremonial) look like?

Any and all information regarding the topic will be greatly appreciated.

Edited by Sayoka, 21 July 2010 - 06:14 AM.

[mohistManiac]

I think the Manchu were like the Jurchen. Nurhaci was the leader that got many semi nomadic groups together with the Jurchen to form the Manchu. Mandarin spoken today is based on the Beijing dialect which was transformed due to the Manchu conquerors speaking a language which was based on the Jurchen spoken language. So today I guess you can say most Chinese people speak a hybrid Jurchen/Sinitic language called Mandarin.

[qrasy]

The origin of the queue should be directly related to the practise of Xianbei 鮮卑.
During the North-South dynasty period, the North Dynasties was called "索虜" ("queue-headed") by the Southerners.

Completely shaving off the front half of the hair should be Xiongnu 匈奴, though.

Mandarin spoken today is based on the Beijing dialect which was transformed due to the Manchu conquerors speaking a language which was based on the Jurchen spoken language. So today I guess you can say most Chinese people speak a hybrid Jurchen/Sinitic language called Mandarin.

Whether the statement is correct or not depends on what you refer to by "transformation" and "Mandarin". Even before Manchu's arrival (around Ming dynasty), "Northerners' language" was already pretty close to its present form.
And, the phrase "Southwestern Mandarin" uses a different sense of "Mandarin".

[mohistManiac]

The origin of the queue should be directly related to the practise of Xianbei 鮮卑.
During the North-South dynasty period, the North Dynasties was called "索虜" ("queue-headed") by the Southerners.

Completely shaving off the front half of the hair should be Xiongnu 匈奴, though.

Whether the statement is correct or not depends on what you refer to by "transformation" and "Mandarin". Even before Manchu's arrival (around Ming dynasty), "Northerners' language" was already pretty close to its present form.
And, the phrase "Southwestern Mandarin" uses a different sense of "Mandarin".

The Beijing dialect Mandarin was different from the Southwestern Mandarin as it was different from the Mandarin used in Guangdong province and so on and so forth. The idea is to be able to include all forms of Mandarin and situate them demographically in a way which relates one sect as relating far more heavily to one other. Of course in the end Mandarin would come to relate all those who use it but the trend of influence might be subtly suggested in higher number of users which have come to be influenced by the speaking of one dialect over another (the phenomenon of prestige dialects), in other words either a trend of attracting migrants from nation wide localities or of the innate expansion of the local population regime. So I posed a hypothetical but basically the premise holds true, if during Qing dynasty people were moving northwards due to the opportunities and stability provided by the normative principles ascribed to the administrative rule of the Manchus then naturally people would come to want to speak and relate to things that were Manchu in nature. The question is whether Manchu was deeply Jurchen in nature. Likewise the population of the north having affiliated more closely with the Manchu ruling elite would find themselves being accommodated more easily elsewhere as their cultural differences are accepted as higher in the value chain and are thus embedded altogether within the larger Sinitic language network as they develop a spread zone. What is problematic is that due to Manchu assimilation and assimilation in general any recurring developments between Sino languages and any other concomitant alien language always results in a perception that the end result recursively becomes Sinitic. So either Jurchen is prevented from existing separately by being subordinated to Sinitic type developments or Jurchen ceases existing altogether at a certain point although it had once existed separately.

[qrasy]

The Beijing dialect Mandarin was different from the Southwestern Mandarin as it was different from the Mandarin used in Guangdong province and so on and so forth.

"Mandarin used in Guangdong province" that you usually see is not a local language [but rather Guangdong-accented Putonghua], whereas the "Mandarin" in "Southwestern Mandarin" doesn't simply mean that. Chuanpu [Sichuan-accented Putonghua] and real Sichuanhua is different, for example. It's the real Sichuanhua that is classified into Southwestern Mandarin.
And this Southwestern branch was already formed before Qing came.

The term "Mandarin" before translated into English (i.e. "官話"), was already there during Ming dynasty.
http://xb.lygsf.cn/x...of mandarin.pdf

So I posed a hypothetical but basically the premise holds true, if during Qing dynasty people were moving northwards due to the opportunities and stability provided by the normative principles ascribed to the administrative rule of the Manchus then naturally people would come to want to speak and relate to things that were Manchu in nature.

Phonologically and grammatically Manchu language is difficult for a new adult Chinese learner [for example the Southern people moving Northward], in the end the Manchus as minorities, chose to adopt a Northern Chinese language.

The question is whether Manchu was deeply Jurchen in nature.

Manchu was at first only a renaming of Jurchen.

What is problematic is that due to Manchu assimilation and assimilation in general any recurring developments between Sino languages and any other concomitant alien language always results in a perception that the end result recursively becomes Sinitic.

Grammatically Mandarin is Sinitic.
For "walk with him", instead of "我和他走" I would expect something like "我呢他和走" for Altaic.
Accusative and ablative is also often postpositional in Altaic, not in Mandarin (no marker and using 從 (preposition), respectively).

So either Jurchen is prevented from existing separately by being subordinated to Sinitic type developments or Jurchen ceases existing altogether at a certain point although it had once existed separately.

The Manchu language still exist today, even though it's only spoken by very few people.
http://www.ethnologu...ge.asp?code=mnc
It's classified as Altaic, not Mandarin.

Edited by qrasy, 18 September 2010 - 11:21 AM.

[bloodmerchant]

There is still a Jurchen language called Xibe/Sibe being spoken in Xinjiang. People say that it's almost identical to Classical Manchu. Its speakers are descended from Manchu colonists who settled in Xinjiang during the Qing dynasty (to act as military garrisons). But the Xibe themselves state that they are descendants of the Xianbei rather than Manchu military garrison colonists. And it is indeed in a better position than Manchu.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 18 September 2010 - 08:19 PM.

[Karakhan]

There is still a Jurchen language called Xibe/Sibe being spoken in Xinjiang. People say that it's almost identical to Classical Manchu. Its speakers are descended from Manchu colonists who settled in Xinjiang during the Qing dynasty (to act as military garrisons). But the Xibe themselves state that they are descendants of the Xianbei rather than Manchu military garrison colonists. And it is indeed in a better position than Manchu.

Well such ethnic histories need to be carefully examined because especially during the early 20th century, they were often constructed by ethnographers and anthropologists to match certain views.

It is quite clear linguistically that the Xibe language is extremely close to Manchurian, although having a heavier amount of loan words from Chinese. Xibe in Xinjiang especially, contain heavy borrowing from neighboring languages, especially Uighur and Kazakh, some Russian as well. The Xibe are essentially tribes descended from Jurchens that were initially unwilling to submit to the Manchu confederation. The Xibe, and other Tungusic and Altaic tribes who did not initially submit (such as the Daur), were classified as "New Manchu" and often sent off to guard distant regions.

[mohistManiac]

"Mandarin used in Guangdong province" that you usually see is not a local language [but rather Guangdong-accented Putonghua], whereas the "Mandarin" in "Southwestern Mandarin" doesn't simply mean that. Chuanpu [Sichuan-accented Putonghua] and real Sichuanhua is different, for example. It's the real Sichuanhua that is classified into Southwestern Mandarin.
And this Southwestern branch was already formed before Qing came.

The term "Mandarin" before translated into English (i.e. "官話"), was already there during Ming dynasty.
http://xb.lygsf.cn/x...of mandarin.pdf

Phonologically and grammatically Manchu language is difficult for a new adult Chinese learner [for example the Southern people moving Northward], in the end the Manchus as minorities, chose to adopt a Northern Chinese language.

Manchu was at first only a renaming of Jurchen.

Grammatically Mandarin is Sinitic.
For "walk with him", instead of "我和他走" I would expect something like "我呢他和走" for Altaic.
Accusative and ablative is also often postpositional in Altaic, not in Mandarin (no marker and using 從 (preposition), respectively).

The Manchu language still exist today, even though it's only spoken by very few people.
http://www.ethnologu...ge.asp?code=mnc
It's classified as Altaic, not Mandarin.

The accented Mandarin is what Guangdong people speak when they first use Cantonese before trying to master Mandarin. But this is the kind of process that made Mandarin speaking populations develop all over China in the first place. Some people spoke it the way it has been spoken in a certain way for generations and then the language spread around finding others willing to learn it on a basis of presumably lesser retention that ranges from only using loan words to basically utilizing its entire grammatical structure to the extent of even being influenced by the culture's non linguistic conceptualizations. The degree to which the spreading language (Mandarin in this case) remains totally intact is what I'm going after. The Manchus may have at first wanted to sinicize themselves but in the end they created something which was standardized apart from other Mandarin speaking populations in post Ming China. It wouldn't be long before the sinicization trend reverses and the Manchus having been more and more assimilated begin producing the outward flow of information and become critical cultural producers while the rest of China become critical cultural bearers.

[qrasy]

The degree to which the spreading language (Mandarin in this case) remains totally intact is what I'm going after. The Manchus may have at first wanted to sinicize themselves but in the end they created something which was standardized apart from other Mandarin speaking populations in post Ming China.

What I wanted to stress was that "Mandarin" in the sense that includes Southwestern Chinese, cannot be treated as a Jurchen language. And, it's not simply "an accent" as it includes many words that even the speakers themselves know to be different from Putonghua, I can think of one example, "na lo = girl" in Liuzhou. "Putonghua with a Liuzhou accent" would instead contain a slightly twisted form of "nü hai zi".

For "Mandarin" in the more specific sense (i.e. de facto court language during Qing dynasty) it's more debatable.
But what I think is that, even in that particular speech, we don't find that much Jurchen-ness in it (there are some, but the deviation is quite little compared to the difference between different forms of Chinese).

Edited by qrasy, 20 September 2010 - 02:59 PM.

[mohistManiac]

What I wanted to stress was that "Mandarin" in the sense that includes Southwestern Chinese, cannot be treated as a Jurchen language. And, it's not simply "an accent" as it includes many words that even the speakers themselves know to be different from Putonghua, I can think of one example, "na lo = girl" in Liuzhou. "Putonghua with a Liuzhou accent" would instead contain a slightly twisted form of "nü hai zi".

For "Mandarin" in the more specific sense (i.e. de facto court language during Qing dynasty) it's more debatable.
But what I think is that, even in that particular speech, we don't find that much Jurchen-ness in it (there are some, but the deviation is quite little compared to the difference between different forms of Chinese).

Accents given time could deviate enough to appear as totally separate wordings. In the case of the "na lo" girl example the "n" sound is still used. The question has to be which influenced which to a greater extent or were the developments purely isolated phenomenon which probably won't be the case unless parts of China are separated by totally impenetrable walls.
Some is enough to showcase a systemized (whether conscious or not) kinds of development that would now include the Jurchen or Manchu aspect of the language. I dare say the Beijing dialect was what produced the very gutteral sounds and the rolling tongue sensibilities that it has. Being used by Manchu royalty and imbued with court sophistication makes it more prestigious in having used it in such a way that would also entail its more "opulent" aspects as perceived by those that either wish to imitate it or resist the influences.

[qrasy]

Accents given time could deviate enough to appear as totally separate wordings. In the case of the "na lo" girl example the "n" sound is still used.

It's not only the appearance. For example, one won't think of "lo" as a regular deviation of "hai zi".
Having the second component replaced by an unrelated word is considered separate wording.
Example is seen in 今天 and 今日. Obviously one directly replaces 天 with 日 or vice versa, not simply "an accentual difference" (and often accentual differences would not really influence the Chinese writing).

Of course I can find a more different example, Putonghua "na me" and Liuzhou "gang".
Liuzhou-accented Putonghua will likely use "na mo".
Liuzhou-accented Putonghua is significantly different from "Liuzhou Mandarin" [I am assuming [i]linguistic definition[/i] of "Liuzhou Mandarin" instead of commoners' wording].

What I would say is that, "Southwestern Mandarin" is not something used by Manchus or something derived from it, as "Mandarin language" is already attested in Ming (or even earlier).

I dare say the Beijing dialect was what produced the very gutteral sounds and the rolling tongue sensibilities that it has.

But this didn't emerge out of nothing. There are Middle Chinese precedents of these.
Some Mid-Latitude Chinese even has more usage of sh- than Beijing Mandarin, and it's a separate development.

Being used by Manchu royalty and imbued with court sophistication makes it more prestigious in having used it in such a way that would also entail its more "opulent" aspects as perceived by those that either wish to imitate it or resist the influences.

Indeed, whatever Chinese the royalty choose will influence all the other types of Chinese.
That doesn't say how much Jurchen influence this speech has, though.

Edited by qrasy, 20 September 2010 - 04:03 PM.

[mohistManiac]

It's not only the appearance. For example, one won't think of "lo" as a regular deviation of "hai zi".
Having the second component replaced by an unrelated word is considered separate wording.
Example is seen in 今天 and 今日. Obviously one directly replaces 天 with 日 or vice versa, not simply "an accentual difference" (and often accentual differences would not really influence the Chinese writing).

Of course I can find a more different example, Putonghua "na me" and Liuzhou "gang".
Liuzhou-accented Putonghua will likely use "na mo".
Liuzhou-accented Putonghua is significantly different from "Liuzhou Mandarin" [I am assuming [i]linguistic definition[/i] of "Liuzhou Mandarin" instead of commoners' wording].

I'm not understanding the appearance part. The n sound for girl probably has to do with the psychological impact on making n the linguistic sound for female of feminine that has some basis eons ago in some locality. But if one person used nui and was a powerful emperor then others are bound to use it until someone far away picks it up but whose people had already a far different way of saying it but wanted a practical compromise and so they use na. I don't know what lo equates to. Words get transmitted contagiously but the structure of the viral word changes just like a real virus would.

Tian and Ri. This is where in conjunction with Jin they both mean today when we transcribe the meaning to English that is. But in reality they are both similar to each other but have differences. Jin Tian is more consequential when one is expressing the reverential aspect of the environment as Tian has meaning with the overarching sky. Jin Ri on the other hand doesn't have the same characteristic of reverence but is more of expressing a reference to the time in passing. I don't know the epistemological history of words so you'll have to explain why this example is used.

The examples I use are really just out of what I perceive linguistic evolution to entail so I don't take what I say seriously but I try nonetheless. I would rather try to make sense of why in Cantonese "Tai" is the word used for table as in being able to use this word for Taiwan but not Zhuo Zi. I suspect it has to do with the non linguistic conceptualizations that make wording different in the first place but as to the way they sound that's simply what I was trying to get at in terms of conceptualizing Mandarin to be a parent group of all those localities that use the dialects for communication as a linguistic species apart from Yue or something else. Some prestigious group was using it and somehow the influences spread more or less equally to the other parts and the most recent cultural event was manifest in the Jurchen refounding in Qing dynasty which as a people in adopting Chinese customs and language were quite adamant about retaining their own identity even whist accepting sinicization.

[qrasy]

[quote name='mohistManiac' timestamp='1285022638' post='4996337']
I'm not understanding the appearance part. The n sound for girl probably has to do with the psychological impact on making n the linguistic sound for female of feminine that has some basis eons ago in some locality.[/quote] At first you appear to have thought that nühaizi is the same structure as nalo except of accentual difference, and are you now changing your opinion by saying that it's simply psychological thing?

[quote]I don't know what lo equates to. Words get transmitted contagiously but the structure of the viral word changes just like a real virus would.[/quote] Indeed it's difficult to find something that equates it. Put then that is exactly the point: it's not "simply connected" to Haizi.

[quote]But in reality they are both similar to each other but have differences.[/quote] That is what called "synonyms".
In 今日/今天, the 日 and 天 are not cognates (cognates=同源詞), even though Cantonese spoken 今日 translates to Putonghua 今天 and vice versa.
[of course, that may ignore some connotations even though it is the correct translation.]
In both Cantonese and Mandarin, the other form is used in writing, not in daily speech, and for "daily vs not-so-daily" pair of synonyms, people can and do "introduce slight differences into the meaning".

And, I personally do not revere the sky when I say "今天" in Mandarin.

[quote]I would rather try to make sense of why in Cantonese "Tai" is the word used for table as in being able to use this word for Taiwan but not Zhuo Zi.[/quote] It's different Chinese character for Hong Kong people (檯), even though mainland simplification confuses them (台).

[quote]I suspect it has to do with the non linguistic conceptualizations that make wording different in the first place[/quote] Whatever the cause is, the point is that the wording has already been "replaced" instead of "same word being pronounced in a twisted way".

[quote]as to the way they sound that's simply what I was trying to get at in terms of conceptualizing Mandarin to be a parent group of all those localities that use the dialects for communication as a linguistic species apart from Yue or something else.[/quote] One thing is that "Mandarin" by itself is ambiguous when it comes to linguistic topic (i.e. more than 1 different senses).
One is what you appear to mean by "the parent group of all those localities" (apparently corresponding to what I consider a linguistic branch of Chinese), another one is simply referring to one particular form e.g. Qing Court Language. They are not the same (even though related).
That's also why I mentioned that whether the statement is true depends on which meaning of 'Mandarin' you put.
When you "exchange" a few senses, you can easily confuse yourself (and the others, too when they read your posts).

[quote]Some prestigious group was using it and somehow the influences spread more or less equally to the other parts and the most recent cultural event was manifest in the Jurchen refounding in Qing dynasty [/quote Influences very often come in bits and parts (instead of "wholesale replacement"), and in that case what is already separate will still be considered separate.

Edited by qrasy, 20 September 2010 - 08:42 PM.

[mohistManiac]

At first you appear to have thought that nühaizi is the same structure as nalo except of accentual difference, and are you now changing your opinion by saying that it's simply psychological thing?

Indeed it's difficult to find something that equates it. Put then that is exactly the point: it's not "simply connected" to Haizi.

That is what called "synonyms".
In 今日/今天, the 日 and 天 are not cognates (cognates=同源詞), even though Cantonese spoken 今日 translates to Putonghua 今天 and vice versa.
[of course, that may ignore some connotations even though it is the correct translation.]
In both Cantonese and Mandarin, the other form is used in writing, not in daily speech, and for "daily vs not-so-daily" pair of synonyms, people can and do "introduce slight differences into the meaning".

And, I personally do not revere the sky when I say "今天" in Mandarin.

It's different Chinese character for Hong Kong people (檯), even though mainland simplification confuses them (台).

Whatever the cause is, the point is that the wording has already been "replaced" instead of "same word being pronounced in a twisted way".

One thing is that "Mandarin" by itself is ambiguous when it comes to linguistic topic (i.e. more than 1 different senses).
One is what you appear to mean by "the parent group of all those localities" (apparently corresponding to what I consider a linguistic branch of Chinese), another one is simply referring to one particular form e.g. Qing Court Language. They are not the same (even though related).
That's also why I mentioned that whether the statement is true depends on which meaning of 'Mandarin' you put.
When you "exchange" a few senses, you can easily confuse yourself (and the others, too when they read your posts).

Influences very often come in bits and parts (instead of "wholesale replacement"), and in that case what is already separate will still be considered separate.

I erased my earlier post here transferred it to below

Edited by mohistManiac, 21 September 2010 - 10:06 AM.

[mohistManiac]

The post I did doesn't appear to my browser so I'm posting it again hoping that the site will actively receive it...

If the words are both from Mandarin speaking localities then I'd say it is likely that the speakers were eventually tuned to the "n" sound for girl (and also for boy) but that the choice of either going with the "ui" sound or the "a" sound after the "n" sound is destined to a particular locality which in facsimile the vowel sounds become skewed without nationwide state sponsored education. A metaphor would be like a dog barks, a lion roars but both convey the scare tactics of the animal. Someone will say na lo and another will say nui hai zi and another will say girl or gal and what sets them apart is only the extent to which they are set apart. Just like tai versus zhuo. I hear "toi" as the way Cantonese refer to a table but never "zhoi zhee" and the Mandarin speaker says "tai" but he doesn't use it to refer to a table. Clearly Mandarin is not the same as Cantonese from these simple observations. They belong to their own group due to the difference of usage in the same sounding words to an extent that is greater than when two Mandarin dialects are put together. The sound "toi" or "tai" got siphoned off but at the other end the meaning got lost or bent out of shape so that in the end something as simple as table required 2 simultaneous ways of looking at the object. Therefore whether "toi" was derived from "tai" or "tai" was derived from "toi" matters less. As for how Jurchen came to speak Mandarin the situation wouldn't have been much different I think. Bilingual translators brought the language to use in Jurchen lands as part of tributary contact relations early on but skewed the sounds and meanings as they input the culture of the Chinese into a distant land. They probably spoke it with difficulty until during the time of the Manchus it became developed into a linguistic system called the Beijing dialect and used as the court speaking dialect which allowed for the pronunciation of sounds far suitably easier to pronounce for those familiar with the Jurchen language. I can imagine that if one day there would be a blending of English and Mandarin then if the Chinese side controlled things English would sound dramatically different that would favor the Chinese speaking population or rather Putonghua. Like everyone knows what dog is but Mandarin speakers pronounce it skewed like daoge (using pinyin) seemingly unable to simply pronounce an abruptly ending "g" sound. Likely that will happen and daoge seems like a pretty good sound for dog since the ending g sound when drawn out ends up sounding similar to the "gou" sound which is the actual sound used for dog in Mandarin.

Also, Tian had the significance of the overarching reality and so it was used as in Tian Xia while Ri Xia doesn't hold the same meaning. I doubt many consistently use Tian Xia the way it was used in previous eras or that the historical meaning can be traced but to use it in practical modern language consistently has been diminished.

Edited by mohistManiac, 21 September 2010 - 10:14 AM.