48 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

Mandarin, being a high and strong language like English, generally has the tendency to invade and expand outwards. The reason is because Mandarin functions as a lingua franca in the Chinese-speaking world. Linguists called this behaviour "Language Imperialism" (or language war). See http://en.wikipedia....age_imperialism .

If not enough protection is given to low/weak languages, they might either decline or even die out. In China, itself, dialects are able to survive even up to today, largely because of geographical and social segregation.

According to the news program in Singapore, it reported that the Cantonese people are protesting against PRC's decision to use Mandarin for all broadcasting news during the Asian Sports Games, feeling that the language cultural heritage of Cantonese is being challenged by Mandarin. This form of tension illustrates that when attempt in trying to destroy geographical segregation for languages is being made, people will protest to protect their cultural/mother tongue heritage

A field of study called Ecolinguistics (Ecology of languages) has sprung up since 1990s and deals with ensuring a healthy language eco-system, esp. in multilingual nation. See http://en.wikipedia..../Ecolinguistics . Some countries such as Switzerland, Belgium, Canada had instituted Language rights to protect weaker languages. It's certainly a field that Chinese linguists need to look into in order to ensure a healthy language eco-system in multilingual China.

Linguist in Taiwan had already researching ecolinguistics for quite sometime, of making sure weaker/low languages are able to survive. Marked by mother tongue movement in Taiwan, I believe several declining languages such as Taiwanese hokkien, Hakka, aborigine languages had already been revived in Taiwan.

[Shaolin]

It is Guangdong TV, btw, not CCTV or anything "across the whole nation" (so I don't expect it to be broadcast far from Guangdong).
In Guangdong there are more Cantonese native speakers than Mandarin native speakers.

Hi Grasy,

Precisely it is from Guangdong TV and not from CCTV shows that is is an market decision by the company planning for the future for an larger audience in China. Lets not also forget there is mass migration of workers who do not not understand Cantonese into Guangdong as well. Corporate decisions follows the trends and needs of market based economy and cannot dictates it.

Well, if you want an example of government stopping a language, the Indonesian government has successfully prevented most of the Chinese in Indonesia from speaking Chinese fluently.

You got me here.

However I would say the Indonesian government has failed in what it intended to do : The integration of the Chinese into Indonesia. Comparing the Chinese in Indonesia with the Chinese in the Malaysia, Thailand and Singapore, I would argue the latter countries Chinese has a stronger sense of root in their "adopted" countries than those in Indonesia.

All I am saying here is that it is in the interest of the any government to uphold the culture of any group of people may it be linguistic, diet or rituals. Trying to force it will be counter productive.

[qrasy]

Yes, the stranglehold is already technically released in a trial run sort of way when Putonghua is being taught as the alternative but I reason original inhabitants of Guangdong may have sought out privileged areas of use for their language such as perhaps within Dim Sum restaurants or pretty much all places where the products being sold have to do with the expertise of the seller being knowledgeable of the cultural intricacies of the Cantonese speaking peoples.

Hm.. even within Cantonese Restaurant areas, one can still switch to Putonghua.
If it's a culture that is apart from the language itself, well, it's still expressible in Putonghua nevertheless.

Precisely it is from Guangdong TV and not from CCTV shows that is is an market decision by the company planning for the future for an larger audience in China. Lets not also forget there is mass migration of workers who do not not understand Cantonese into Guangdong as well. Corporate decisions follows the trends and needs of market based economy and cannot dictates it.

The name "Guangdong TV" makes me think that it's about Guangdong, not about other provinces.
Indeed non-Guangdong-ers move there.. However, should one do changes to accommodate to minorities in a way that 'ignored' the majority?

However I would say the Indonesian government has failed in what it intended to do : The integration of the Chinese into Indonesia. Comparing the Chinese in Indonesia with the Chinese in the Malaysia, Thailand and Singapore, I would argue the latter countries Chinese has a stronger sense of root in their "adopted" countries than those in Indonesia.

I wonder if they really wanted to do so, though, as genetically the Chinese are always.. quite different from the "real natives".
Instead of "having less sense of root in Indonesia", I would think most of them rather simply kept being reminded by the 'real natives' (even when they were not that interested in their ancestral Chinese roots). For those who doesn't speak Chinese, "Indonesian" still appears to come first.

[baybal]

As many CCP undertakings, it seems to be a diversion attempt to cover something bigger. They are just trying to have the population to be busy with something.

[mohistManiac]

Hm.. even within Cantonese Restaurant areas, one can still switch to Putonghua.
If it's a culture that is apart from the language itself, well, it's still expressible in Putonghua nevertheless.

I'm sure that you can understand that using Putonghua or any other language especially if you are unable to communicate fluently with it takes away from the experience of being amidst a culture and this was the crux Guangdong native speakers were riding on in promoting their own cultural products and services. You'd want an Indian guide to show you Hindu temples if you were a tourist but if you were Indian yourself you'd want a guide that would show you the right places in the cultural context of your shared heritage and would prefer he'd speak in his native regional tongue if you yourself spoke it as well. I don't think it is hard to imagine that Dim Sum restaurants are therefore more effectively run by those native speakers in Guangdong rather than say a foreigner from America opting to run a Dim Sum restaurant and marketing to tourists that just happen to stop by and admire the strange decor that is both American and Chinese in style. You simply don't feel the same kind of brotherly/familial atmosphere as you would if you were a native speaker yourself enjoying the meals prepared by the servers that customarily speak the language or dialect of the culture which designed and created the dishes. But this is what the CCP does not want, namely regionalism. They are going in the direction of what is best for the potential customers that may range anywhere from all the provinces of China to other nearby countries and give them the grand unified state cultural experience.

[Yeleixingfeng]

For those who doesn't speak Chinese, "Indonesian" still appears to come first.

I think Chinese Indonesians mostly do not speak Chinese. A large majority of them knows how to write their Chinese names (Of course, in Chinese), and that's it.

[qrasy]

You'd want an Indian guide to show you Hindu temples if you were a tourist but if you were Indian yourself you'd want a guide that would show you the right places in the cultural context of your shared heritage and would prefer he'd speak in his native regional tongue if you yourself spoke it as well.

I was only thinking of switching the language only when necessary. (in here, Hong Kong waiters always try Cantonese first for a Chinese-looking person before switching to anything else)
Of course, if there is only one tour guide it might be inevitable to speak only in one language as it's a waste of time translating one to another.

I once entered Disneyland where an entrance to certain part split different language preferences to different queues. Of course that might mean that Disneyland needed to hire more guides.

I think Chinese Indonesians mostly do not speak Chinese. A large majority of them knows how to write their Chinese names (Of course, in Chinese), and that's it.

The estimation in ethnologue.org says around 2/3 of them doesn't speak Chinese.
Certain cities have a dominating Chinese dialect, though [e.g. in Medan majority of Chinese speak Hokkien (I think more than Indonesian-only speakers of Chinese ethnicity).]
Those in Java island appear to have stronger linguistic assimilation and I guess even more than 2/3 of them doesn't speak Chinese. (and, outside Indonesia, I guess it's more likely to find Indonesian Chinese from Java island than other islands as the capital city is in Java island)

I think most of these 2/3 actually don't even know how to write their Chinese names in Chinese.

[amos]

I think Chinese Indonesians mostly do not speak Chinese. A large majority of them knows how to write their Chinese names (Of course, in Chinese), and that's it.

I once met an Indonesian Chinese. She can only write her Chinese name and speak Teochew dialect.

[Andy Lau]

Another Protest in Guangzhou and now in Hong Kong



The reporter translates the Opera Performer's opinion "their use of some words have now died out in modern chinese, is prove of their dialect's historical richness"

I think this protest will continue and grow bigger.

Edited by Andy Lau, 03 August 2010 - 02:17 AM.

[LinDynasty]

In fact, we have to look at the big thing -- It is the younger generations who are protesting and wanting to preserve Cantonese.

Looks like over 50 years of promoting Putonghua has failed

I believe the China govt is trying to make China into a full Putonghua speaking nation, with people speaking Mandarin Chinese dialects

I don't believe the Chinese govt can completely take away contonese altogether. Even if they replace Cantonese with Mandarin on TV, people within that region will continue to carry on with it privately. If the Chinese govt continue to put pressure on this issue, what will end up happening is forcing them to learn an additional language. I don't believe all cantonese speaking Chinese knows how to speak Mandarin and it might be a positive thing for the folks in those regions to pick up an official language.

I remember growing up in Kaohsiung Taiwan, my teachers would punish anyone who is speaking Taiwanese in public because you just weren't allowed to. I believe the Nationalist in the early or late 1980s were trying to force everyone to speak Mandarin and not regional dialects. Of course we know it didn't out as many of Taiwanese today still able to speak it.

[Andy Lau]

Just looking at this video of Guangzhou, shows how Northerners have formed the majority in Guangzhou 0.0 Is this the same case in Shanghai? where Northerns have formed the majority over the local Shanghainese speakers.




I just read from another forum that there are more Mandarin speakers than Cantonese speakers in Guangzhou.

Edited by Andy Lau, 05 August 2010 - 12:28 AM.

[amos]

I don't believe the Chinese govt can completely take away contonese altogether. Even if they replace Cantonese with Mandarin on TV, people within that region will continue to carry on with it privately. If the Chinese govt continue to put pressure on this issue, what will end up happening is forcing them to learn an additional language. I don't believe all cantonese speaking Chinese knows how to speak Mandarin and it might be a positive thing for the folks in those regions to pick up an official language.

I remember growing up in Kaohsiung Taiwan, my teachers would punish anyone who is speaking Taiwanese in public because you just weren't allowed to. I believe the Nationalist in the early or late 1980s were trying to force everyone to speak Mandarin and not regional dialects. Of course we know it didn't out as many of Taiwanese today still able to speak it.

The popularization of Mandarin in Taiwan is much better than that of Putonghua in mainland China. According to the survey done by China's MOE, only around 55% of the population can speak Mandarin.

[baibushe]

Linguist in Taiwan had already researching ecolinguistics for quite sometime, of making sure weaker/low languages are able to survive. Marked by mother tongue movement in Taiwan, I believe several declining languages such as Taiwanese hokkien, Hakka, aborigine languages had already been revived in Taiwan.

Taiwanese Hokkien and Hakka were never in as bad of a situation as the aboriginal languages and both are doing relatively well now. Many of the aboriginal languages are still in steep decline as there are simply too few tribal members to fully revive the language. The ones faring best (Atayal and Amis) are also the largest tribes. Many of the other languages have managed to cling on this far because the villages are fairly isolated, but as more and more young people leave for the cities, their children aren't going to schools where their mother tongue is taught. There is, however, very good documentation of most of the languages, which makes it easier to bring them back.

[mohistManiac]

http://www.youtube.c...u/4/2oXWKxVio-M Taiwanese aboriginal culture is threatened too.

[baybal]

I don't believe the Chinese govt can completely take away contonese altogether. Even if they replace Cantonese with Mandarin on TV, people within that region will continue to carry on with it privately. If the Chinese govt continue to put pressure on this issue, what will end up happening is forcing them to learn an additional language. I don't believe all cantonese speaking Chinese knows how to speak Mandarin and it might be a positive thing for the folks in those regions to pick up an official language.

I remember growing up in Kaohsiung Taiwan, my teachers would punish anyone who is speaking Taiwanese in public because you just weren't allowed to. I believe the Nationalist in the early or late 1980s were trying to force everyone to speak Mandarin and not regional dialects. Of course we know it didn't out as many of Taiwanese today still able to speak it.

What I'm feeling with increasing confidence is that this rallies may be orchestrated throw-ins. I just remembered how harshly suppressed were rallies of 2008. And in comparison to them, what I see on photos now are just around a hundred policemans peacefully staying aside. Plus, the way how provoking current PRC's propaganda are is just unprecedented.

I know it's forbidden here to discuss current ROC vs. PRC affairs. But I suspect that this all were put upon to divert attention either from economic bubbles popping up or from ROC's upcoming elections.