48 replies to this topic

[Fechin]

Younger generations don't really speak well Shanghai Dialect anymore. Also, there is a branch of Wu Chinese that has been eroded badly by a Mandarin Chinese dialect sub-group.

Effect on Putonghua and Mandarin Chinese dialect.

I believe if one day Chaoshan ban Teochew shows, protesting like this will occur too.

In America,the government does not prohibit the immigrant to speak their own language. It is the immigrants themselves who want to speak English because they understand it is for their own good to be proficient in English. The problem of Mandarin is that it is the language of the backward region,and it was chosen by a small group of people to be the official language. Why should people excitng to speak a language whose speakers are seems as low social status? Besides, there are plenty of Cantonese believe Mandarin is not even Chinese. If Cantonese or Shanghai diaelect was chosen as the offical language, other Chinese would be more than willig to learn the language because it would improve their economic opportunities.

[Zhao Yun '87]

I've lived and travelled a lot in China and I've never met a single person who thinks like that. Obviously it doesn't mean there is noone who does, but it definately makes you lean towards thinking only extremists would. Anyone who has gone to public schools and tons of others already speak mandarin, there's no having to learn it after you're a kid. If people can't understand the benefit of having a single nation have a common tongue, then hope is lost for logic and reason. China is in an especially difficult position and needed it even more due to the nature of their dialects.

You make it out like Mandarin was a bad choice, but it's just the opposite. It was chosen due to its similarities with the other dialects (not all of them obviously) and because they understood that a country can't just worry about itself anymore, it has to be a part of world politics. Mandarin is the easiest of the big languages to learn (and that's saying something because it's hard as c**p). This was probably taken into account for domestic teaching as well. Most people just need to learn to change a few of the syllables they speak.

[mrclub]

I don't believe the Chinese govt can completely take away contonese altogether. Even if they replace Cantonese with Mandarin on TV, people within that region will continue to carry on with it privately. If the Chinese govt continue to put pressure on this issue, what will end up happening is forcing them to learn an additional language. I don't believe all cantonese speaking Chinese knows how to speak Mandarin and it might be a positive thing for the folks in those regions to pick up an official language.

I remember growing up in Kaohsiung Taiwan, my teachers would punish anyone who is speaking Taiwanese in public because you just weren't allowed to. I believe the Nationalist in the early or late 1980s were trying to force everyone to speak Mandarin and not regional dialects. Of course we know it didn't out as many of Taiwanese today still able to speak it.

Of course, its not easy to take Cantonese or other dialects away altogether, but however we have to understand the fact that many younger generations in China really do not know or are weak in their own dialects already ! Their best is Putonghua, not their our dialect

Good thing to know is that the number of dialect users in China (non-Putonghua) is still large

[mrclub]

Honestly speaking, Putonghua and Mandarin Chinese are the mother tongue of Northerners, not Southerners

We have own our mother tongues -- our Southern dialects.

[xng]

The problem of Mandarin is that it is the language of the backward region,and it was chosen by a small group of people to be the official language. Why should people excitng to speak a language whose speakers are seems as low social status? Besides, there are plenty of Cantonese believe Mandarin is not even Chinese. If Cantonese or Shanghai diaelect was chosen as the offical language, other Chinese would be more than willig to learn the language because it would improve their economic opportunities.

It was chosen because the largest percentage of chinese already speaks a form of mandarin so the majority rules and not the heart.

Social status has nothing to do with this, a lot of mandarin speakers have higher status than the southerners. Furthermore, social status changes all the time.

Mandarin is a chinese language except that it is the way that manchurians speak chinese just like how the chinese speak less than perfect English.

Unfortunately, this chinese language lost a lot of old and middle chinese phonetics.

Edited by xng, 09 August 2010 - 06:54 AM.

[xng]

Just looking at this video of Guangzhou, shows how Northerners have formed the majority in Guangzhou 0.0 Is this the same case in Shanghai? where Northerns have formed the majority over the local Shanghainese speakers.




I just read from another forum that there are more Mandarin speakers than Cantonese speakers in Guangzhou.

Those who speak mandarin are not necessarily northerners. There are many from Fujien, Shanghai ie southerners who use Mandarin to communicate because they don't know cantonese.

[qrasy]

It was chosen because the largest percentage of chinese already speaks a form of mandarin so the majority rules and not the heart.

Well, this depends on which definition of "Mandarin" you are using. If you mean the linguistic branch, it's true.
But if it really means specifically "官話" (as used in Ming/Qing dynasty courts), then maybe or maybe not.
(what I mean is something in this article: http://xb.lygsf.cn/x...of mandarin.pdf )

Mandarin is a chinese language except that it is the way that manchurians speak chinese just like how the chinese speak less than perfect English.

I mean, many "Mandarin-like" phenomenon already occurred during Yuan to Ming. So, Southeastern Mandarin is not the way Manchurians spoke Chinese, for example.

And then, actually "Manchurians speaking less than perfect Chinese" might be different from "Chinese speaking less perfect English".
I say it because, phonetically the influences of Chinese into English can be traced back to the habits of Chinese speech (i.e. no -s ending so "s" becomes new syllable).
But the "phonetic influence" from these "Dazi" are innovations that (I think) not within Manchurian phonology (making it more like some innovations that occur after the mother language has been replaced).

Unfortunately, this chinese language lost a lot of old and middle chinese phonetics.

And so are other Chinese dialects, in different aspects.

Those who speak mandarin are not necessarily northerners. There are many from Fujien, Shanghai ie southerners who use Mandarin to communicate because they don't know cantonese.

True. So, once all the local population speaks Mandarin, there's always more Mandarin speakers than non-Mandarins speakers.

[bloodmerchant]

Well Guangzhou does have a sizeable non-native population. Most natives still speak Guangzhou Cantonese.

The problem is that if natives still speak their native tongue or not. And there has been a recent decline in the quality of Shanghainese, for example. Especially with the loss of the ng- initial in some words and the replacement of -aʔ with -iɪʔ in some words.

Compared to the younger generations or my generation, my command in the language may not be as reliable but I still tend to prefer the older pronunciation over their pronunciation.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 11 August 2010 - 09:51 AM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Taiwanese Hokkien and Hakka were never in as bad of a situation as the aboriginal languages and both are doing relatively well now. Many of the aboriginal languages are still in steep decline as there are simply too few tribal members to fully revive the language. The ones faring best (Atayal and Amis) are also the largest tribes. Many of the other languages have managed to cling on this far because the villages are fairly isolated, but as more and more young people leave for the cities, their children aren't going to schools where their mother tongue is taught. There is, however, very good documentation of most of the languages, which makes it easier to bring them back.

IMO, Taiwan is doing a better job than mainland China of not just bettering Mandarin, but also reviving Taiwanese Hokkien/Hakka and saving Taiwanese aborigine languages. If I'm not wrong, some Taiwanese school had already begun to teach aborigine languages and the young generations are learning them.

This was a result was a mother tongue movement in the 1990s after the lifting of martial laws, which allowed various local languages and cultures to be revived and flourished in Taiwan.

[Yeleixingfeng]

Mandarin is not fit to be the official language, simply because of one reason - it has too many synonyms, compared to Hokkien and Cantonese. (I am sorry, but these are the only dialects I know, hence I cannot speak for other Southern dialects)

I have come to doubt Manchurian influences on Mandarin, but there are still differences that I know:
1. no s/sh differences in Cantonese and Hokkien.
2. more endings in Cantonese and Hokkien - not only -n and -ng.
3. more tones in Cantonese and Hokkien, exclusive of entering tones.
4. Cantonese and Hokkien sound strikingly similar, sometimes identical with Japanese and Korean. I am not expert in these foreign languages, but I know that 'books' are pronounced 'chek' in both Hokkien and Korean (compare ce, 册 of Mandarin); 'teeth' pronounced 'ge' in both Hokkien and Japanese (compare ya, 牙 of Mandarin). If they differ from Vietnamese, please say so. I am completely unfamiliar with Vietnamese. However, I am not sure if the Hokkien character for ge is 牙..

夕(yik)、希(hei)、吸(kap)、息(sik1)、析(sik1)、悉(sik1)、兮(hai4)、溪(kai1)、惜(sik1)
They are all pronounced as xī in Mandarin。 The decrease is not absolute, but to a certain extent homonyms are less. Therefore, 配词 (pairing of words) is not necessary. Redundant terms like ‘帮助’‘意义’‘言语’ are hence not necessary too. (Note: I said 'not necessary', not denying the existence of such usage despite.)

I do not use Cantonese on a daily basis, hence I do not definitely know. But 1 thing for sure - the homonyms are less in Cantonese, as shown above. I reckon Cantonese should be the official language, and it is not too late to change... I think.

[Xunmi]

It's not likely, but it's possible that the CPC is creating a future ticking bomb which will cause a problem for national unity when one region of the country is alienated by language policy.

In Spain, the government during the Franco dictatorship forbade the publication and broadcast of Catalan/Galician/etc and called them uncivilized versions of Spanish. This eventually gave rise to the problems that Spain faces in keeping the country in once piece.

If I had my way, I'd keep written Putonghua exactly as it is, but make Middle Chinese spoken in the Tang/Song dynasty the spoken Putonghua. That way, the national spoken language will belong to all Chinese but no one on particular. Failing that, the government must follow Taiwan in permitting regional dialects.

[General_Zhaoyun]

If I had my way, I'd keep written Putonghua exactly as it is, but make Middle Chinese spoken in the Tang/Song dynasty the spoken Putonghua. That way, the national spoken language will belong to all Chinese but no one on particular. Failing that, the government must follow Taiwan in permitting regional dialects.

Middle Chinese spoken in the Tang/Song dynasty does not exist in today's China, except in academic circle.

Linguistic dialects are able to survive in China due to geographical segregation. Because of geographical and regional segregation, they continue to be spoken. The linguistic ecology of China should continue to strive Mandarin as a lingua franca, but should also take care to ensure the healthy survival of other Chinese dialects. Taiwan probably presents the best Chinese example of ensuring Mandarin as a lingua franca, while protecting other dialects such as Taiwanese Hokkien, Hakka and aborigine languages. But in today's Taiwan, geographical segregation was long gone, so you get in Taiwan mixed languages everywhere.

[qrasy]

Mandarin is not fit to be the official language, simply because of one reason - it has too many synonyms, compared to Hokkien and Cantonese. (I am sorry, but these are the only dialects I know, hence I cannot speak for other Southern dialects)

I think you mean homophones (same sound, different meaning) instead of synonyms (same meaning, but different words).

I have come to doubt Manchurian influences on Mandarin, but there are still differences that I know:

Differences are not necessarily influences from non-Chinese languages.

1. no s/sh differences in Cantonese and Hokkien.

Not in Standard Cantonese or Hokkien, but there is for Shunde Cantonese.

2. more endings in Cantonese and Hokkien - not only -n and -ng.

True for Standard Cantonese and Hokkien.

4. Cantonese and Hokkien sound strikingly similar, sometimes identical with Japanese and Korean.

Sometimes, but most of the time Cantonese and Hokkien are considerably different, and this can be more than Cantonese-to-Mandarin difference.
For example the -in rhyme in literary Hokkien corresponds to -in in Mandarin but usually -eun/-an in Cantonese.

I am not expert in these foreign languages, but I know that 'books' are pronounced 'chek' in both Hokkien and Korean (compare ce, 册 of Mandarin); 'teeth' pronounced 'ge' in both Hokkien and Japanese (compare ya, 牙 of Mandarin). If they differ from Vietnamese, please say so. I am completely unfamiliar with Vietnamese. However, I am not sure if the Hokkien character for ge is 牙..

Remember that Japanese has 2 layers of Chinese loans, kan-on and go-on.
牙 is ge and ga. but nha in Vietnam.
I have to check again [for 册].

夕(yik)

jik, with j similar to Malay c.

They are all pronounced as xī in Mandarin。 The decrease is not absolute, but to a certain extent homonyms are less.

According to my experience, the merger of sh and s somewhat highly increases the number of homophones in Cantonese (not sure about Hokkien).

But 1 thing for sure - the homonyms are less in Cantonese, as shown above. I reckon Cantonese should be the official language, and it is not too late to change... I think.

I think the syllable count is still higher in Standard Cantonese (not sure about the "lazy sound").
Cantonese is hard to be official language because some of the particles do not have a simple way of representation (e.g. ge3 (possessive), go2 (that)).
Furthermore, many non-Cantonese won't be able to pronounce many of the Cantonese phonemes accurately without much training.

Mandarin is good for a "lingua franca"/"koine" because it's simple, but not "that much".
The drawback is of course difficulty in expressing complex concepts.

If I had my way, I'd keep written Putonghua exactly as it is, but make Middle Chinese spoken in the Tang/Song dynasty the spoken Putonghua. That way, the national spoken language will belong to all Chinese but no one on particular. Failing that, the government must follow Taiwan in permitting regional dialects.

Sorry, but Middle Chinese phonology is simply too complex for modern Chinese and therefore it's not practical at all.
Permitting regional dialects as the main language of a TV program is there in PRC, for province-level and sometimes also prefecture-level.
This thread is about the attempt to change this.

[xng]

I have come to doubt Manchurian influences on Mandarin, but there are still differences that I know:
1. no s/sh differences in Cantonese and Hokkien.
2. more endings in Cantonese and Hokkien - not only -n and -ng.
3. more tones in Cantonese and Hokkien, exclusive of entering tones.
4. Cantonese and Hokkien sound strikingly similar, sometimes identical with Japanese and Korean. I am not expert in these foreign languages, but I know that 'books' are pronounced 'chek' in both Hokkien and Korean (compare ce, 册 of Mandarin); 'teeth' pronounced 'ge' in both Hokkien and Japanese (compare ya, 牙 of Mandarin). If they differ from Vietnamese, please say so. I am completely unfamiliar with Vietnamese. However, I am not sure if the Hokkien character for ge is 牙..

The Manchu ruled China for 300 years which is a long time and has the most influence on forming the Mandarin phonetics. The meaning of the word Mandarin is 'high public official of imperial China' which at that time was the Manchus.

Cantonese don't sound similar to Hokkien because ...

Cantonese is inherited from Middle Chinese but Hokkien is inherited from Old Chinese. There are many old chinese words in Hokkien and also Old Chinese don't have the 'F' initial consonant which Middle Chinese possess. Cantonese and Hakka are more similar as both are inherited from Middle Chinese.

牙 is pronounced 'Gay' or 'Ngay' in Min languages. Mandarin was transformed from Middle Chinese, thus 'Nga' in cantonese is twisted to become 'Ya' as the Manchus can't seem to speak 'Ng' initial consonant which all southern chinese languages have. In other words, Mandarin is closer in sound to Cantonese when compared with Hokkien ie. Ya and Nga.

The loss of m,t,k,p ending consonants is probably due to the Manchus not being able to speak them which is similar to how the japanese can't speak t,k,p (and maybe 'm' )ending consonant.

Edited by xng, 17 August 2010 - 10:55 AM.

[qrasy]

The Manchu ruled China for 300 years which is a long time and has the most influence on forming the Mandarin phonetics.

It does have influence, but it won't be earlier than late Ming.
So, in order to make proper judgment on what influences Manchu have, you have to see Late Ming Chinese not Middle Chinese or Cantonese.

The meaning of the word Mandarin is 'high public official of imperial China' which at that time was the Manchus.

It's just translation from 官話.
While the English term might come from misinterpretations by foreigners, however the Chinese term "官話" simply means the language used by the "官"s from different provinces to communicate (which was necessary as Chinese languages have significantly diversified to the point of non-intelligibility).

Cantonese is inherited from Middle Chinese but Hokkien is inherited from Old Chinese.

Though that does not mean Hokkien is similar to Old Chinese.
One factor might be, for example, there has been more than 1000 years of influences from other languages in South China (and that may include some types of extinct Daic languages).
As you know it, Hokkien is more Thai-like than Khmer-like. Hokkien and Thai also doesn't have double consonants like sm- or sn-.

There are many old chinese words in Hokkien and also Old Chinese don't have the 'F' initial consonant which Middle Chinese possess.

Early Middle Chinese also didn't have F, only the Late Middle Chinese has.

牙 is pronounced 'Gay' or 'Ngay' in Min languages. Mandarin was transformed from Middle Chinese, thus 'Nga' in cantonese is twisted to become 'Ya' as the Manchus can't seem to speak 'Ng' initial consonant.

Ng- is already lost in Phagspa of Yuan dynasty.
The vowelism can be quite different in Min languages, so I can't be sure what vowel follows ng- in Mindong or Minbei.
The vowel /a:/ appears more like Late Middle Chinese, it was probably something closer to /æ/ earlier.
The typical linguistic reconstruction for this rhyme has *-ra- not /e/.

The loss of m,t,k,p ending consonants is probably due to the Manchus not being able to speak them which is similar to how the japanese can't speak t,k,p.

Late Ming Chinese already lost most of those, leaving only one stop ending (we won't need to care which one of them exactly it is) and -n/ng.
This article explains some features of Ming-Qing Guanhua: http://www.google.co...a2cd8eab02d18af


If one compares to Japanese, why not to Korean as well? Korean has all those endings.
And, "Akim Bek" is a valid Manchu name so one shouldn't attribute complete loss of -m and -k to Manchu: http://www.omniglot....ting/manchu.htm

Edited by qrasy, 17 August 2010 - 11:08 AM.