6 replies to this topic

[jonpalombi]

Nihao All,

Both, my friend and I study Yang Style Taijiquan. Now, there is an issue that my mate recently brought up, regarding the reference to the Green Dragon in the 54 point Yang Jian form/set. He sites, "Green Dragon emerges from the Water. Green Dragon Shows it's claws. They're often more 'offensively based' moves, whereas the moves named with a Black Dragon are the more defensive."

Yet, while the white, black, yellow, red and azure dragons are all described in detail, elsewhere in Chinese cosmology... how come there is so little mention of green dragons in historical Chinese martial literature? (That is, within my meager grasp of Chinese martial literature.) To me, azure is much, much more of a blue than a green. So, where does one look to find English language information about Chinese Green Dragons? The Net has a multitude of suggestions pertaining to what the color green symbolizes for dragons, in general, but none of them are specifically about Chinese green dragons. Obviously, Western dragons are not the mirror images of Eastern dragons, neither are their specific attributes an exact parallel.

What is the nature of; what are attributes of the GREEN variety of China's mysterious Dragon? Why are they mentioned within the Yang jian form, if they are such an obscure variety (not being one of the four directions nor representing one of the 5 elements)? Or has something gone wrong with the English translation of the original Chinese characters? Ironically, our local Chinese restaurant is named, The Green Dragon and we live in a small town in Northern Vermont (USA). So, it must be a fairly common theme.

To most of us, dragons would likely be green in color, as per their reptilian nature. Iguanas and Komodo Dragons come to mind, although they are only lizards. Not to mention the vast multitude of exquisite carvings of green dragons, sculpted in jade and serpentine. Any thought? Thanks in advance, Guys.

Zai jian, Jon

Edited by jonpalombi, 27 October 2010 - 08:22 PM.

[Shaolin]

Hi Jon,

The words "Qing Long" （青龙） is also often mistakenly translated as "Green Dragon" (綠龙). The correct translation the heavenly creature "Qing Long" （青龙） is "Azure Dragon". Many people wrongly translated the word "Qing" （青) to "Green" the colour. It is because it sounds like "Green" (qi) in the Min Nan Language. "Qing Long" （青龙） also represents the wood element in "Wuxing" (五行)and hence is also associated the colour green and therefore the confusion. Hence strictly speaking there is no "Green Dragons" in Chinese mythology but of course there can be "Green Coloured Dragons."

[JohnD]

For more info on the translation of 青(qing), see here: http://www.chinahist..._1#entry4990448

[jonpalombi]

Hi Jon,

The words "Qing Long" （青龙） is also often mistakenly translated as "Green Dragon" (綠龙). The correct translation the heavenly creature "Qing Long" （青龙） is "Azure Dragon". Many people wrongly translated the word "Qing" （青) to "Green" the colour. It is because it sounds like "Green" (qi) in the Min Nan Language. "Qing Long" （青龙） also represents the wood element in "Wuxing" (五行)and hence is also associated the colour green and therefore the confusion. Hence strictly speaking there is no "Green Dragons" in Chinese mythology but of course there can be "Green Coloured Dragons."

Thank you for the clarification! Then it boils-down to the use and translation of the word "Qing". So, strictly speaking, the Green Dragon mentioned twice in the Yangshi taijiquan jian form is an Azure Dragon and is absolutely one of the primary 5 elementals? Makes perfect sense (sort of). So then, the two are one?

Essentially, I suppose it is an issue of color-semantics; defining the parameters of the word "azure"? I am a jeweler and a lapidary, so I am often in this realm of cross-referencing colors. Given that blue-green is a secondary color, composed of the 2 distinctly separate states of coloration (pure blue being a primary color), it would be just as nondescript and prone to subjective differentiation, were the descriptive term Turquoise Dragon used. The gemstone turquoise, can be any number of shades and variations of blue, blue-green, green-blue or green. None of which are a fixed description of coloration, from gemstone to gemstone... rather, they embody a wide variety of color variations. These are grouped together, as a single mineral, in an array of alternate combinations of blue and green (blending together).

Lapis lazuli can certainly be considered a pure hue of Heavenly blue, as Imperial jadeite is one of the purest hues of emerald green. Ironically, the mineral azurite is one of the primary minerals found within Lazward (the native Afghan name for lapis lazuli). Azurite is a royal blue with little-to-no green in it's color make-up at all, although over centuries of growth and transformation, it becomes malachite and is extremely green!!!

Now, turquoise lives in a world, whose boundaries are often extremes, between these two distinct colors. From now on, I will interpret the Green Dragon in the sword forms, as an Azure Dragon. Or perhaps a Turquoise Dragon? Or is this incorrect? It's a complex issue, eh?

Good Day, Jon

Edited by jonpalombi, 31 October 2010 - 08:04 AM.

[jonpalombi]

For more info on the translation of 青(qing), see here: http://www.chinahist..._1#entry4990448

Thanks John,

I actually found this posting with the SEARCH feature, on this website, a few days ago. And yes, I found this a most fascinating read.

Arrivederci, Jon

P.S. Is your avatar Li Kui (the Black Whirlwind)?

Edited by jonpalombi, 30 October 2010 - 08:12 AM.

[mariusj]

I disagree.

I think Qing is a word of many faces, and to nail them and say its 'blue' or 'azure' doesn't make sense.

While it is true that Qing often used to depict blue or bluish, it also describes greenish things, like Qing Shan Lv Shui青山綠水， or Qing Miao 青苗，etc etc.

Qing Long is also known as Cang Long, as you can see in Han books, they are interchangable, Cang Long and Qing long are the one and same, as you will see people talk about Bai Hu against Cang Long, and in this situation, I would even say Qing is used as the color black. Yes, Qing could be the color black, as you can just google and see from ChuCi.

But most importantly, Qing is the color of east, the color of spring, and Qing Long is more of dragon from the east, the symbol of spring.

[mariusj]

In fact, Qing Tian isn't blue sky, its grayish white clear sky. Which makes more sense then Blue Sky, as Qing Tian describes both the sky and a man's integrity beyond doubt - a clear sky is a better fit then a colored sky.