43 replies to this topic

[kagemusha]

Just read an article online discussing the genetic origins of modern-day Koreans.

http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0004210

According to the article, researched by two Korean scholars and a British, the conclusion is that modern-day Koreans are descended primarily from Altaic-Tungus tribes from Siberia/Manchuria BUT with a considerable amount of south-east Asian DNA strains. Today's Korean male population has a high frequency of Y-haplotype O2b (with origins in Manchuria and also prevalent in modern Japan). There are also a moderate frequency of Korean males with the NO and N haplotype which researchers have found to be originated just east of the Aral Sea region (found also among Japanese males and other northern Asiatics).

What is also interesting is the moderate frequency of Y-haplotype C3 among modern Korean males (possibly from the Koguryo-Buyo peoples). This is also found widely among Mongols, Tungusics, Buryats, and other Altaic ethnic groups. There were also a considerable number of male Koreans who had the typical Han Chinese O3 marker (possibly due to repeated Chinese invasion over the centuries).

The most interesting of all is that the female mtDNA markers have a significantly higher Altaic-Tungusic origin than the male haplotype markers. Which is interesting because many researchers consider O2b, N, and C3 as having a northerly origin (unless they consider O2b as a southern genetic marker, which is highly dubious).

Anyway, this seems to correspond to my own personal observations of the way modern-day Koreans physically look. Though they predominately look Altaic you can also detect a considerable southern Han genetic phenotype. In fact, some Koreans today look much more Han Chinese than Altaic. For example, if you go to certain regions of Korean you will find that the southern phenotype is recognizable (e.g., south Jeolla or south Gyeongsang provinces). If you look at pictures of some Koreans from Hamgyong Province you can easily detect a Altaic-Tungus being primary (you can detect a lot of Altaic looking Koreans in any major city in Korea).

Just found this interesting, and hope this lays to rest constant battles of where modern Koreans descended from.

Edited by kagemusha, 19 December 2010 - 03:23 AM.

[SNK_1408]

This is natural considering it's pretty much same for many nationality/ethnicity of the world.
Korea received sizable Chinese refugees during 16th~17th century when Ming Dynasty fell to Manchus.

[kagemusha]

This is natural considering it's pretty much same for many nationality/ethnicity of the world.
Korea received sizable Chinese refugees during 16th~17th century when Ming Dynasty fell to Manchus.

That is an interesting fact SNK_1408. So basically there are a lot of modern ethnic Koreans (who consider themselves Koreans ethnically) who may in fact be of Han Chinese origin?

I also know that several Korean surnames have Chinese origins. My only question then is: how do the genetic markers differ among the different Korean provinces? I'm sure the southern DNA strand is higher among the southern provinces, while Koreans in North Korea (esp. in Hamgyong) have greater Altaic DNA similar to their Malgal, Ugede, and Nanai neighbors across the border.

[lesterado]

I do not think that the findings are in anyway surprising. If a study could prove that a certain people are descended from a single DNA strand, then that's FASCINATING!

[qrasy]

The most interesting of all is that the female mtDNA markers have a significantly higher Altaic-Tungusic origin than the male haplotype markers. Which is interesting because many researchers consider O2b, N, and C3 as having a northerly origin (unless they consider O2b as a southern genetic marker, which is highly dubious).

I think it's stated that Koreans have a very high of percentage "Southeast Asian male lineage" while I can't see something that is as high as stated if O2b were excluded.

[edit: Haplogroup O2b (SRY465, a.k.a. M176) is apparently considered Southern by them,
"male-biased southern contribution to Korean gene pool illustrated, for example, by haplogroups O-M122 (42.2%) and O-SRY465 (20.1%)"]

I think one motivation to consider O2b Southern is because O2a (its closest relative) is mainly Southern, and Vietnamese has both O2a and O2b.

Korea received sizable Chinese refugees during 16th~17th century when Ming Dynasty fell to Manchus.

Do you know of the regions where they migrated there?
My guess is that it's be mostly Northern Chinese, as Southerner going North and across the sea would be really far.

I do not think that the findings are in anyway surprising. If a study could prove that a certain people are descended from a single DNA strand, then that's FASCINATING!

Not sure what you are trying to say here.
You mean, literally single DNA strand (not a living organism)?

Edited by qrasy, 19 December 2010 - 01:20 PM.

[kagemusha]

I think one motivation to consider O2b Southern is because O2a (its closest relative) is mainly Southern, and Vietnamese has both O2a and O2b.

I know that the O2 and O3 have major distributions in mid-southern China and south-east Asia, but geneticists have identified the specific haplotype O2b as having originated in present-day Manchuria. Also, these same researchers have identified the parent haplotype of all the O groups as NO. Haplotype NO is not from south-east Asia, but from Central Asia near the Aral Sea (Kazakhstan). The mystery here is how did a haplotype family like O have such a wide and concentrated distribution in middle China/south-east Asia when the parent haplotype NO originated in Central Asia?

Edited by kagemusha, 19 December 2010 - 03:26 PM.

[qrasy]

I know that the O2 and O3 have major distributions in mid-southern China and south-east Asia, but geneticists have identified the specific haplotype O2b as having originated in present-day Manchuria. Also, these same researchers have identified the parent haplotype of all the O groups as NO. Haplotype NO is not from south-east Asia, but from Central Asia near the Aral Sea (Kazakhstan).

Let's not take this too literally. There's no very accurate way of making sure when/where the markers actually originated. The estimates could be quite rough.

And when the original population got decimated, level of diversity would be higher in places where they immigrated to, as compared to their original lands; that is against the common trend.
[just for comparison, Chinese languages are more diverse in Southeast China than in Central Plains even though Central Plains were populated by Chinese earlier while British English is apparently more diverse than American English]

The mystery here is how did a haplotype family like O have such a wide and concentrated distribution in middle China/south-east Asia when the parent haplotype NO originated in Central Asia?

Founder Effect may account for it, i.e. when there's a small scale migration, some original minority could become a much more significant part of the exodus, and when this population expands the proportion becomes very different from parent population.
Also, people like kings may have more descendants than others (have you heard of how people speculated the link between C3 and Genghis Khan?).
And also sometimes, it's simply "chance" (e.g. someone who is "luckier" to have more descendant). Genetic drift could occur for "neutral" mutations like this.

Edited by qrasy, 19 December 2010 - 03:45 PM.

[kagemusha]

Let's not take this too literally. There's no very accurate way of making sure when/where the markers actually originated. The estimates could be quite rough.

And when the original population got decimated, level of diversity would be higher in places where they immigrated to, as compared to their original lands; that is against the common trend.
[just for comparison, Chinese languages are more diverse in Southeast China than in Central Plains even though Central Plains were populated by Chinese earlier while British English is apparently more diverse than American English]

Founder Effect may account for it, i.e. when there's a small scale migration, some original minority could become a much more significant part of the exodus, and when this population expands the proportion becomes very different from parent population.
Also, people like kings may have more descendants than others (have you heard of how people speculated the link between C3 and Genghis Khan?).
And also sometimes, it's simply "chance" (e.g. someone who is "luckier" to have more descendant). Genetic drift could occur for "neutral" mutations like this.

I see your point here. However, that still doesn't make modern Koreans having a large influx of south-east Asian DNA. Scholars from various fields have concluded that modern Koreans are largely descended from peoples who left the Altai Mountain regions and inhabited the peninsula. The original paleo-asiatics in the Korea peninsula at that time were small compared to these invading tribes and were wiped or assimilated into the dominant Altaic culture. Also, the south-east Asian element among modern Koreans are a result of admixture over the centuries. The dominant Altaic DNA foundation remaining largely intact.

[qrasy]

Now O-M122 is O3, and then O1 has more to do with Austronesian. Clearly they are considering the whole O as "Southern".

Therefore I am wondering, what Y-chromosome did they consider as "Northern"? N?
But then even Mongolians have more O than N.

[SNK_1408]

I think it's stated that Koreans have a very high of percentage "Southeast Asian male lineage" while I can't see something that is as high as stated if O2b were excluded.

[edit: Haplogroup O2b (SRY465, a.k.a. M176) is apparently considered Southern by them,
"male-biased southern contribution to Korean gene pool illustrated, for example, by haplogroups O-M122 (42.2%) and O-SRY465 (20.1%)"]

I think one motivation to consider O2b Southern is because O2a (its closest relative) is mainly Southern, and Vietnamese has both O2a and O2b.

Do you know of the regions where they migrated there?
My guess is that it's be mostly Northern Chinese, as Southerner going North and across the sea would be really far.

..

We can argue all day with origin of "O", it can be trace far as Indian as well.
As for O2b, Japanese people also seemed to have abundant of O2b as well.

With regards to Chinese refugees eventually assimilated into Korean population are mostly these from Shang, Yan, Han, Tang and Ming Dynasties.
Since Han and Tang periods goes back to more than 1,000 years, they're hard to trace from modern Korean population. But, there are sizable Ming ancestry in Korean population as many ex-Ming generals to scholars fled to Korea during the Manchu conquest of China. From palace ladies to inter-married families (Chinese-Korean) let their children/relatives and their loveones to fled. My guess is, they're mostly from Shandong and Nanjing/Shanghai regions, because there are some Korean cuisines that appeared & taste similar to cuisines of these regions. And this is where a lot of spices were introduced to Korea specially during 16~17th century.

Korean scholars now accepts, Koreans aren't really homogeneous at all, just culture.
The land of Korean peninsula was always received sizable refugees from aboard (across the sea) to mountains (mountainous terrain connects with mountains of Manju regions). If you guys study the founding legends of most Korean states, they're mostly associated themselves with some VIP fleeing from something, then eventually setup their states.

I.e.
Gojoseon - Tangun was refugee himself, he was son of Bear-totem tribe that won war with Tiger-totem tribe.
Buyeo - It's said tobe formed by refugees from Gojoseon.
Three-Haan tribes - Also claimed tobe from Gojoseon.
Silla - Refugee ruler fled from ex-Gojoseon & Dongyi regions. (originally formed by three different clans)
Goguryeo - Buyeo prince fled and found new kingdom with his five clans of Jolbon tribes.
Baekje - Sons of Jumong of Goguryeo conquered Sam-Haan & Malgal lands (also refugee from Goguryeo).
Gaya - Founder fled from Dongyi region of China then received refugee royalty from Ayuta Indian kingdom.
Balhae - Another refugee gathered wandering ex-Goguryeo, ex-Bakeje, ex-Buyo and Malgal & formed new kingdom.
Koryo - Originally formed by wandering Buddhist monk then eventually taken control by ex-Goguryeo merchant family.
Joseon - Formed by ex-Koryo general (who was originally Mongol-Yuan general) gather his men from Hamgyong region (area where a lot of Balhae, malgal people where). Most of his first army was setup by his Jurchen warriors, Yi Songgye believed to have several wives and one of them were Jurchen.

Edited by SNK_1408, 21 December 2010 - 11:44 PM.

[kagemusha]

We can argue all day with origin of "O", it can be trace far as Indian as well.
As for O2b, Japanese people also seemed to have abundant of O2b as well.

With regards to Chinese refugees eventually assimilated into Korean population are mostly these from Shang, Yan, Han, Tang and Ming Dynasties.
Since Han and Tang periods goes back to more than 1,000 years, they're hard to trace from modern Korean population. But, there are sizable Ming ancestry in Korean population as many ex-Ming generals to scholars fled to Korea during the Manchu conquest of China. From palace ladies to inter-married families (Chinese-Korean) let their children/relatives and their loveones to fled. My guess is, they're mostly from Shandong and Nanjing/Shanghai regions, because there are some Korean cuisines that appeared & taste similar to cuisines of these regions. And this is where a lot of spices were introduced to Korea specially during 16~17th century.

Korean scholars now accepts, Koreans aren't really homogeneous at all, just culture.
The land of Korean peninsula was always received sizable refugees from aboard (across the sea) to mountains (mountainous terrain connects with mountains of Manju regions). If you guys study the founding legends of most Korean states, they're mostly associated themselves with some VIP fleeing from something, then eventually setup their states.

I.e.
Gojoseon - Tangun was refugee himself, he was son of Bear-totem tribe that won war with Tiger-totem tribe.
Buyeo - It's said tobe formed by refugees from Gojoseon.
Three-Haan tribes - Also claimed tobe from Gojoseon.
Silla - Refugee ruler fled from ex-Gojoseon & Dongyi regions. (originally formed by three different clans)
Goguryeo - Buyeo prince fled and found new kingdom with his five clans of Jolbon tribes.
Baekje - Sons of Jumong of Goguryeo conquered Sam-Haan & Malgal lands (also refugee from Goguryeo).
Gaya - Founder fled from Dongyi region of China then received refugee royalty from Ayuta Indian kingdom.
Balhae - Another refugee gathered wandering ex-Goguryeo, ex-Bakeje, ex-Buyo and Malgal & formed new kingdom.
Koryo - Originally formed by wandering Buddhist monk then eventually taken control by ex-Goguryeo merchant family.
Joseon - Formed by ex-Koryo general (who was originally Mongol-Yuan general) gather his men from Hamgyong region (area where a lot of Balhae, malgal people where). Most of his first army was setup by his Jurchen warriors, Yi Songgye believed to have several wives and one of them were Jurchen.

I don't think anyone doubts that Koreans today are primarily descended from Altaic tribes from the north. I think the question is how much of a southern elements exists in modern Koreans. Most estimates suggest 40% of Koreans today are of non-Altaic (southern) stock. Of course, this is an average. Some Koreans have more Altaic DNA and some have more southern DNA. This is proven by the fact the facial variations among modern Koreans are not uniform at all (despite the fact that most Koreans still have that distinct Korean look).

[HelloChapChap]

Just read an article online discussing the genetic origins of modern-day Koreans.

http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0004210

According to the article, researched by two Korean scholars and a British, the conclusion is that modern-day Koreans are descended primarily from Altaic-Tungus tribes from Siberia/Manchuria BUT with a considerable amount of south-east Asian DNA strains. Today's Korean male population has a high frequency of Y-haplotype O2b (with origins in Manchuria and also prevalent in modern Japan). There are also a moderate frequency of Korean males with the NO and N haplotype which researchers have found to be originated just east of the Aral Sea region (found also among Japanese males and other northern Asiatics).

What is also interesting is the moderate frequency of Y-haplotype C3 among modern Korean males (possibly from the Koguryo-Buyo peoples). This is also found widely among Mongols, Tungusics, Buryats, and other Altaic ethnic groups. There were also a considerable number of male Koreans who had the typical Han Chinese O3 marker (possibly due to repeated Chinese invasion over the centuries).

The most interesting of all is that the female mtDNA markers have a significantly higher Altaic-Tungusic origin than the male haplotype markers. Which is interesting because many researchers consider O2b, N, and C3 as having a northerly origin (unless they consider O2b as a southern genetic marker, which is highly dubious).

Anyway, this seems to correspond to my own personal observations of the way modern-day Koreans physically look. Though they predominately look Altaic you can also detect a considerable southern Han genetic phenotype. In fact, some Koreans today look much more Han Chinese than Altaic. For example, if you go to certain regions of Korean you will find that the southern phenotype is recognizable (e.g., south Jeolla or south Gyeongsang provinces). If you look at pictures of some Koreans from Hamgyong Province you can easily detect a Altaic-Tungus being primary (you can detect a lot of Altaic looking Koreans in any major city in Korea).

Just found this interesting, and hope this lays to rest constant battles of where modern Koreans descended from.

this chart confirms what you have said. Koreans are mostly of Altaic origins but htere is a considerable east/south-east origin in common with the Chinese and Thai speaking minorities of China and Thailand.

[kagemusha]

this chart confirms what you have said. Koreans are mostly of Altaic origins but htere is a considerable east/south-east origin in common with the Chinese and Thai speaking minorities of China and Thailand.

What I find interesting (even somewhat bizarre) with that chart is how the Japanese have more Altaic genes than Koreans. I always believed that Koreans had more "Altaicness" in them than Japanese. I guess this goes to show that one cannot determine genetic origins by merely observing outward appearances.

[SNK_1408]

I don't think anyone doubts that Koreans today are primarily descended from Altaic tribes from the north. I think the question is how much of a southern elements exists in modern Koreans. Most estimates suggest 40% of Koreans today are of non-Altaic (southern) stock. Of course, this is an average. Some Koreans have more Altaic DNA and some have more southern DNA. This is proven by the fact the facial variations among modern Koreans are not uniform at all (despite the fact that most Koreans still have that distinct Korean look).

40% non-Altaic sounds right considering modern day Koreans are mixed between two major people (Yemaek and Haans) or Neolithic and Paleolithic tribes. According to family regista or lineage agency, about 30~40% of Koreans were originated from non-Korean ancestry and large percentage of these Southern origin genes were believed tobe from via east coast of China.

Yes, most Koreans still have distinct or unique looks because of long period of isolation.
It wasn't until very modern period, Koreans were started mixing with other people.

[ChosunScholar]

The authors of that article hypothesized that Jomon DNA is classed under Altaic DNA, which is debatable. The Jomon language group (Ainu and Ryukyuan languages) is part of Japonic, which is considered to be Altaic. Remember if Jomon is included in Altaic, it doesn't mean Japanese have to look more like "X" appearance. Jomon physical appearance differs greatly to other Altaic groups. So it depends what you define Jomon as. Is it Altaic or not? Of course the Altaic DNA of Koreans is NOT Jomon.

Remember, Koreans have the most typical Northeast Asian physical appearance. This is due to a low percentage of Austronesian DNA.


You can see Japanese have more Austronesian DNA than Koreans. Not much, but it's noticeable. The Japanese can sometimes be mistaken for Southeast Asian. This is because of Austronesian influences from the south (look at the proximity of Ryukyu islands to Austronesians). The Chinese are much more heavily mixed with Austronesians.

It's also interesting that many Vietnamese immigrants went to Korea during Joseon. One of the Lee clans in Korea are descendants of a Vietnamese prince.

Edited by ChosunScholar, 05 January 2011 - 03:55 AM.