8 replies to this topic

[TheAznValedictorian]

Throughout the history of China, which one is considered, either slightly or greatly, more important: respecting/obeying the parents or respecting/obeying the state?
Was filial piety more important? Or was the state more important?

Thank you

Edited by TheAznValedictorian, 19 February 2011 - 03:25 AM.

[mohistManiac]

To answer this I think the record has to be brought up for how Confucianism got passed around. If the concept of filial piety cascaded around in a viral manner then it ought to have been filial piety which was more of a concern. If however filial piety was a concept passed down from people in high places as part of a set of rituals and guidance mechanisms then it could be said that the state was more of a concern. I think it could also depend on how filial piety was packaged like if a ruler saw his son unfit to rule was the son really being unfilial or was the father just really pissed off he would be passing tianxia to someone who couldn't maintain the state in exactly the same way he did.

[Mei Houwang]

Obeying the state was interpreted as more important. It was the state that chose how to 'correctly' interpret the classics for imperial exams. So people who wants to pass would need to thoroughly know the interpretations. In truth Confucius hinted that obeying the parent was more important, as he criticized Legalism when the latter philosophy rewarded a son for turning in his father.

[mariusj]

Not true at all.

Every dynasty place a higher importance on filial piety than loyalty. It was clear how Confucian view the relationships b/w filial piety and loyalty. Filial piety is a natural bond that is higher ranked than the forged bond of loyalty. The way that later Confucians did around it was to associate the Emperor with everyone's father, thus resolved the issue of your father vs the Emperor.

The personal loyalty to the Emperor, who is also the Father, does not conflict with Filial piety. In fact, you will OFTEN see people who turn down the opportunity to serve the Emperor through family reasons. For that mattered, when your parents died, you are OBLIGATED to retire for 3 years, placing the needs of the State below the needs of filial piety. To even further reinforce my point, when you are unfilial you are DISQUALIFIED from your office.

Also, the Civil Service Exam is NOT interpretation of the classics, or at least not all. There are more than 1 exams, and more often than not it is the POLICY which you must argue through classics. Anyone who would foolishly place loyalty above filial piety will probably receive a very big frown from the administrator.

As for the relationship b/w the Emperor and his Imperial Princes, the exception was made, as there are NO family in the house of the divine son.
天子無家事。 Of course, it would be foolish to treat it literal, but depending on the time, could be more lenient or more strict.

[mohistManiac]

Not true at all.

Every dynasty place a higher importance on filial piety than loyalty. It was clear how Confucian view the relationships b/w filial piety and loyalty. Filial piety is a natural bond that is higher ranked than the forged bond of loyalty. The way that later Confucians did around it was to associate the Emperor with everyone's father, thus resolved the issue of your father vs the Emperor.

The personal loyalty to the Emperor, who is also the Father, does not conflict with Filial piety. In fact, you will OFTEN see people who turn down the opportunity to serve the Emperor through family reasons. For that mattered, when your parents died, you are OBLIGATED to retire for 3 years, placing the needs of the State below the needs of filial piety. To even further reinforce my point, when you are unfilial you are DISQUALIFIED from your office.

Also, the Civil Service Exam is NOT interpretation of the classics, or at least not all. There are more than 1 exams, and more often than not it is the POLICY which you must argue through classics. Anyone who would foolishly place loyalty above filial piety will probably receive a very big frown from the administrator.

As for the relationship b/w the Emperor and his Imperial Princes, the exception was made, as there are NO family in the house of the divine son.
天子無家事。 Of course, it would be foolish to treat it literal, but depending on the time, could be more lenient or more strict.

Filial piety along with Confucianism work along the lines of li. You sit down sing a song praise your ancestor's glorious past raise a toast and dress a certain way. If you do not do these things then you were considered unfilial even though you may have had the most positive of intentions regarding your ancestors while the person that commits to following the rituals in the best ways is filial even though he may not have the best intentions and may only be following ritual for a time to drive his personal ambition. The reason why an officer can be expelled from office due to his "unfilial" behavior is because of li and has nothing to do with the character of his loyalty. The thing to notice is how the li got passed around and whether or not it had preceeded the existence of actual filial piety without li.

[mariusj]

Filial piety along with Confucianism work along the lines of li. You sit down sing a song praise your ancestor's glorious past raise a toast and dress a certain way. If you do not do these things then you were considered unfilial even though you may have had the most positive of intentions regarding your ancestors while the person that commits to following the rituals in the best ways is filial even though he may not have the best intentions and may only be following ritual for a time to drive his personal ambition. The reason why an officer can be expelled from office due to his "unfilial" behavior is because of li and has nothing to do with the character of his loyalty. The thing to notice is how the li got passed around and whether or not it had preceeded the existence of actual filial piety without li.

No.

You are mixing things up.

First of all, I don't think you know what IS filial piety if you think sing songs and dress certain way is filial piety, I think you are watching too much TV. I don't think you read much about WHAT IS filial piety, and personally I don't think discussing Confucian virtue work with you at all, as you reject the simplest Confucian ideas.

I think you have no idea what 'unfilial' is, and no idea what Li meant in a Chinese court.

So I think you should stop using Li around as a reason for these quality which the Confucian value.

[mohistManiac]

No.

You are mixing things up.

First of all, I don't think you know what IS filial piety if you think sing songs and dress certain way is filial piety, I think you are watching too much TV. I don't think you read much about WHAT IS filial piety, and personally I don't think discussing Confucian virtue work with you at all, as you reject the simplest Confucian ideas.

I think you have no idea what 'unfilial' is, and no idea what Li meant in a Chinese court.

So I think you should stop using Li around as a reason for these quality which the Confucian value.

Well filial piety can be understood by itself while Confucianism upholds it with a distinct flavor of li so there is a mixing of these values when dealing with the driving forces in ancient China which had allowed for one to perceive filial piety along with ritualistic behavior and loyalty to the state and its elites. Back then Chinese people dressed in proper attire, kept their hair, ate and made transactions etc in particular ways to uphold the ritual norms prescribed to elevate a person's virtue especially that which provided for the involvement of one's role and place in society and many of these would be dedicated to the relationship between youth in relationship to their elders or higher ups.

[Jaak]

Every dynasty place a higher importance on filial piety than loyalty. It was clear how Confucian view the relationships b/w filial piety and loyalty. Filial piety is a natural bond that is higher ranked than the forged bond of loyalty. The way that later Confucians did around it was to associate the Emperor with everyone's father, thus resolved the issue of your father vs the Emperor.

The personal loyalty to the Emperor, who is also the Father, does not conflict with Filial piety. In fact, you will OFTEN see people who turn down the opportunity to serve the Emperor through family reasons. For that mattered, when your parents died, you are OBLIGATED to retire for 3 years, placing the needs of the State below the needs of filial piety. To even further reinforce my point, when you are unfilial you are DISQUALIFIED from your office.

In every dynasty, you do hear of the government refusing mourning leave to officials on grounds that the official was needed at duties, or hedging it around with restriction. I mean every dynasty, not at all times. For example Han dynasty repeatedly went back and forth either generally denying mourning leave or granting it.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Throughout the history of China, which one is considered, either slightly or greatly, more important: respecting/obeying the parents or respecting/obeying the state?
Was filial piety more important? Or was the state more important?

Thank you

This is a question of two Confucian virtues "Filial Piety vs Loyalty to the State". In most circumstances, they are of conflicting nature in ancient China. There is a Chinese saying "忠孝两难全" (it's difficult to fulfill the role of Loyalty and Filial piety), esp when it comes to being a court official or military officer. The general folks and Confucian scholars will emphasize Filial piety comes before Loyalty. Only with filial piety in the home will you extend your loyalty to the state. However, the court will emphasize Loyalty to the State as the utmost duty.