74 replies to this topic

[Spooner]

Suddenly I am hungry. I can't stop thinking of a big bowl of french croatian squid. It is dangerous when people are hungry. Hungry people don't heard like ducks.

[Gan]

I'm not sure on precise size of salary today, but what are called professional communist propagandists are certainly real. Just read Wang Dan's web page for details or this > http://news.bbc.co.u...fic/7783640.stm if you simply need proof.

It's almost certain that communis party has some kind of internet propaganda troops.There was, as I can remember, even a case when one of those propagandists was writing a blog documenting his work.

Just today, as forums are heating up again you can read their comments on Jasmine revolution.

I've been trying to read some sites frequented by nationals in their original Chinese language. Sometimes, it's kind of funny but sometimes it doesn't quite make sense to me.

Part of the reason I wonder is, not that I doubt the existence of the 50 cent people entirely, but it's just sometimes the words don't sound that different from nationalist sentiments I see from other people around the world (who may or may not be supported by their governments).

[General_Zhaoyun]

The Jasmine revolution is still on going in China!! I hope CCP doesn't ban our website. CCP is on high alert at the moment and they have already captured and seized a number of people, put them on surveillance. If I'm not wrong, the revolution plans to mass as much people as possible to build up the strength before 4th of June (Tiananmen Incidence).

For an update, see Wikipedia article

http://en.wikipedia....asmine_protests

The central command website (Chinese) is at http://www.zgmlh.org/ (It's a Chinese website). I wonder whether it will be hacked by CCP.

There are already a number of facebook groups established. Just type 中國茉莉花革命

There are already weekly gatherings in these cities (in mainland China).

[mrclub]

To be honest, many people are quite unhappy in China

Their cost of living is going up. Their property prices is worse than Hong Kong or Singapore.

Many social issues there. Hence, if one day a people's revolution breaks out there, I am not surprised.

Anyway, there are always reasons why over the course of centuries, people keep on moving out of China and live aboard, even till today

[General_Zhaoyun]

I'm not surprised in something "big" happens in China this year. I just met one China guy who came to Singapore to work a few weeks ago. He told me he is not happy with the way things work out in China now. There are many social problems at the moment. It looks like we just have to be an observer on this situation.

You will be surprised that there are countless of human rights activist or political dissidents in China who were arrested on charges of trying to "subvert the government". There is actually a human rights movement in China started many years ago.

[mrclub]

I'm not surprised in something "big" happens in China this year. I just met one China guy who came to Singapore to work a few weeks ago. He told me he is not happy with the way things work out in China now. There are many social problems at the moment. It looks like we just have to be an observer on this situation.

You will be surprised that there are countless of human rights activist or political dissidents in China who were arrested on charges of trying to "subvert the government". There is actually a human rights movement in China started many years ago.

Around 20 years ago, a China relative came to Singapore to visit family.

Upon being asked by my grandmother how is China now (as in, 20 years ago), he simply said it is comparable with during 1920s-1949 when China was ruled by KMT and Chiang Kai-shek (During this time, China's in a mess actually)

20 years on, I believe we can imagine how bad it is now.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Around 20 years ago, a China relative came to Singapore to visit family.

Upon being asked by my grandmother how is China now (as in, 20 years ago), he simply said it is comparable with during 1920s-1949 when China was ruled by KMT and Chiang Kai-shek (During this time, China's in a mess actually)

20 years on, I believe we can imagine how bad it is now.

I don't think today's China is as bad as during 1920s-1949, particularly when China was torn by warlordism, war between KMT and CCP, anti-Japanese war, Chinese civil war between KMT and CCP. China then was largely agrarian (most of the people were peasants). While KMT was able to gain support from the urban cities and upper elite of the society, they were not able to gain support from the rural peasants, particularly when they failed to implement land reform in the rural farmlands of China. CCP on the other hand developed their base from peasants regions, forcing landlords to give up the land and abolished the serfdom that had been on-going in China for many years, implementing collectivization and even forming "Chinese soviet regions" and use their own currency. CCP were then able to gain the peasant support. While KMT was involved in the full-scale Anti-Japanese war, CCP made use of the time to develop their military force. During the Anti-Japanese war, most of the campaign against Japanese were fought by KMT (totalling some 5 million troops), while CCP (only 60,000 troops) were involved in light skirmishes against the Japanese. Effectively, KMT troops was tired after 8 years of war against Japanese. After WWII, Chinese civil war broke out again between KMT and CCP. By then, inflation and economic problems plagued China. Coupled with corruption within KMT, CCP used this as a propaganda against KMT. Eventually KMT lost the war and fled to Taiwan.

The problem with today's China is unlike the old days. There are economic and social problems, but the country is not torn by war or foreign imperialism such as aggression from Japan (or western colonial powers). The rising Middle Class in China today were squeezed in between by the high inflation and corruption within CCP. Another issue is that people in China today want a modern free and democratic society, where you are free to establish your own party (multi-party system), participating in election and have the power to vote, free press, freedom of speech. Contrary to this is a one-party CCP dictatorship and when you fight for democracy or criticize the government, you end up in jail or are exiled. Establishing a political party is made illegal and very often leaders were arrested. Human rights abuse is rampant in the country.

IMO, most of the people want China to be a modern democracy, and probably Taiwan can be a role model for democracy. KMT having fled to Taiwan had learned about the lessons of its defeat in mainland China. They implemented land reforms in Taiwan during the 1950s and developed Taiwan's economy (there existed a Taiwan economic miracle during the 1970s and 80s). With the removal of martial law in 1987, Taiwan gradually democratized (as pushed by DPP) and become a modern democracy. Today's it's a developed nation. Of course during the martial law, Taiwan was under a one party dictatorship by KMT (there is even white terror). But during the 1980s, the rise of various external parties in Taiwan such as DPP forced KMT to give up on its one party dictatorship. After 1987 with the removal of martial law, the ban on establishing political parties in Taiwan was lifted. The ban on press was also removed and Taiwan gradually progressed towards a democracy.

[Nikha]

I am an ordinary person, before saying democrazy is the only solution to a big country as People Republic of China consider and analyze three big populations and diverse societies like: 1. India 2. USA and 3. Indonesia. Why democrazy has been successful there and why failed? What to suggest when people perceive that their democrazy has failed? Ruled by elites that they believe not their choice? Collapse and disunited like the former USSR? And sending boatpeoples and refugees to her neighbours?

Edited by Nikha, 31 March 2011 - 01:24 AM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

This is a Chinese Cartoon made by some PRC folks as a satire against CCP. It tells of rabbits (esp. 2011 rabbit year) being tamed by the government (the tiger), and later being bitten by the government, now it's time for the rabbits to bite the tigers.

[Nikha]

Well, it's only personal opinion that posted on youtube. I am not a mainland Chinese, rabbit to me just to ridicule Chinese people,too many, just like the rabbits reproduce rapidly...

[Gan]

In my personal opinion, if people want to reform their own societies, it would be best to learn from everyone and not just rely on a few places (be they be Taiwan, the US, Europe, etc.)

[Nikha]

Very dangerous if we are too naive.
I think beating some mainland Chinese over some arguments means nothing at all. I am no mainland Chinese, I am no communist, but people will simply misunderstand me if I 'defend' CCP online, accusing me of '50 cent online police'.

[mariusj]

Around 20 years ago, a China relative came to Singapore to visit family.

Upon being asked by my grandmother how is China now (as in, 20 years ago), he simply said it is comparable with during 1920s-1949 when China was ruled by KMT and Chiang Kai-shek (During this time, China's in a mess actually)

20 years on, I believe we can imagine how bad it is now.

Someone is comparing 1990's China to China in hyper inflation, civil war, invasion, and famine flood starvation diseases rampant?

That person obviously did not know what they were talking about.

Its in fact insane. I don't know how anyone could even say that with honesty and integrity, the worst problem of 1990s were cronyism, rampant corruption, and some form of elitism, which is not new [or old] to Chiang's ROC then, on the other hand, there were no wars, no famine, no outbreak of deadly diseases due to flooding, no hyperinflation, instead there are definitely order, prosperity, increase in life expectancy, higher education, availability of public transportation though certain limit does apply to relocation.
This is not saying PRC was perfect during the 90s, in fact, it was pretty far from perfect, but to compare it to KMT's era during 20s and 30s is just insult to any intelligent man.


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I am an ordinary person, before saying democrazy is the only solution to a big country as People Republic of China consider and analyze three big populations and diverse societies like: 1. India 2. USA and 3. Indonesia. Why democrazy has been successful there and why failed? What to suggest when people perceive that their democrazy has failed? Ruled by elites that they believe not their choice? Collapse and disunited like the former USSR? And sending boatpeoples and refugees to her neighbours?

From your usage of English, I am assuming it is not your first language, and Chinese was probably your first language. I think you are asking the wrong question. It is difficult to answer why a way of life was successful here and why it fail there, because there are too many variables - the idea that one can use social science in a scientific way is much complicated then what you propose. Communism was very successful in a small plot of land in the US in the 19th century, but it didn't work out once it try to spread, why? Too many variables. On the other hand, why SHOULD people chose democracy? It is because in democracy, the people are accountable for the action of their government, while in non democracy, the people are not responsible for their action. Ultimately, the people must decide when to take responsibility; there are democracy that worked in large nation such as US, and small nation such as Korea, educated nation such as Denmark, and nations such as Ethiopia with a high rate of illiteracy.
Most of your reasons are more of an excuse then an explanation. In the end, the people must decide whether or not they want positive liberty or negative liberty; do you want to determine what is right for yourself, or have someone else determine for you.

If you do read Chinese, I think you should read a novel Legend of Galactic Heroes, its entertaining and it does mention and argue about the benefit and problems of authoritarian government vs democracy, and it is very thought provoking.
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Very dangerous if we are too naive.
I think beating some mainland Chinese over some arguments means nothing at all. I am no mainland Chinese, I am no communist, but people will simply misunderstand me if I 'defend' CCP online, accusing me of '50 cent online police'.

Are you trying to defend yourself from imaginary accusations?

If you use logic and reasons to defend your argument, I fail to see who would accuse you of been online police, especially since this is outside of PRC. On the other hand, making illogical claims and personal attacks will not help any of your arguments.

Edited by mariusj, 31 March 2011 - 06:12 AM.

[mrclub]

They have lived throughout the KMT rule till Communist rule today.

Edited by mrclub, 31 March 2011 - 07:50 AM.

[mariusj]

They have lived throughout the KMT rule till Communist rule today.

Yes, their subjective view is certainly valid, but how can anyone dispute hard evidence?

I know plenty of people who lived through that age, most of them have different experiences, some of whom suffered greatly and perhaps their views were obstructed by their life experience. Someone could certainly be middle class during 20s and then fell on hard time in the 90s, but the over all state in China is so different that these outliners are just outliners.

To dispute that, you would need to show how life in the 20s and 90s are similar relatively given technology changed much of our life. You have to consider social mobility, education spending, general welfare spending, public spending, security, availability of necessities, stability of currency, etc etc. And in all these category China have made enough stride that to equate 20s to 90s is straight up lying.