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Jasmine Revolution?


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#61 William O'Chee

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:13 AM

Checking my IP? what for? why if I am from PRC? You can't tolerate with people who disagree with you? What's your meaning of the word authoritarian? Do you know why people slowly become dictators? Why you hate them?

The CHF is a place which encourages a wide variety of views. We like honest and genuine debate. What we don't like is when people don't tell the truth.

You said "I am no mainland Chinese."

But people have cast legitimate doubt about that statement. That is also why I gently asked you to tell us where you are from.

If you are not from the PRC, then please tell us, and all will be good.

I only tried to wake you up. The real situation will become unconrollable. Will become beyond your worst imaginations. I am 1000000000000% sure. The 'dissidents' that I mentioned above will not capable in handling the real situations.

You may agree or disagree. I am not forcing my views or opinion to others :thumbup:

Maybe, but until the issues above are sorted out, people are unlikely to take your statements at face value.

#62 Nikha

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:14 AM

first do no harm

Edited by Nikha, 05 April 2011 - 04:18 AM.


#63 Yizheng

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:30 PM

What if the sky falls tomorrow, ask the man from Ji, and he was always worried. I thought we learn that lesson during the warring state, to not use IF to justify inaction.

Yes, indeed, that man from Ji seems to pop up all over the place still today, worrying about whether future democracy might bring a worse future. It's good to remember him and his fate.

the emergence of a Chinese military strongman, is still preferable in comparison with the continuous rule by the Communist party[/b].

What I want to see is the emergence of an independent line of authority in China to oversee the smooth transformation to a democratic system from a dictatorial [or authroritative - since there is no Communist strongman who is qualified to be called a dictator] system. I just don't know how the so-called Democracy [should be termed Democratic -adjective versus noun] Party had done any army work as they claimed that they had. The neutrality of the PLA is the only way to guarantee the territorial integrity of China in transformation. And, hopefully the army line is not entangled with the transnational business interests and the Wall Street money interests.

-Just some of my thoughts today to share with you. Unlike our Russian friend Yizheng, I am for the emergence of a strongman like Putin in China, with of course the precondition that the Chinese 'Putin' would first disband the CCP, similar to a deal between Sun Yat-sen and Yuan Shi-kai in 1911-2 - to have the Manchu Qing emperor abdicate. I would appeal to the so-called Democracy Party to exert more efforts to seeking out such a Chinese 'Putin' should China be so unlucky to fail to produce a Chinese Gorbachev or a Chinese Yeltsin.

I can understand the arguments for saying that the emergence of a strongman is preferable to ongoing rule by CCP. Of course, strongmen are of all different kinds. I certainly do not wish on China one like Putin. If China were to have a strongman oversee a sort of transition period from CCP rule to something hopefully more democratic, I would wish for China someone more like Ataturk, say, a military strongman who actually left the country with much more solid foundations.
The problem with strongmen is that they either build their popularity and support on myths, like putin, or they tend to get rather too in love with their jobs and overstay their time, and neglect to prepare the way forward for the time when they have to depart the stage. Mubarak in Egypt was a case in point. He was not at all an entirely negative figure, but he stayed on too long. Nazarbayev in Kazakhstan has just been reelected president, and one could say he has genuine support from many in Kazakhstan. He is far from ideal, and there are problems in Kazakhstan, but overall he has achieved some quite good results too, and Kazakhstan today is doing better than anywhere else in Central Asia economically, at any rate. But he is old now, and there is nothing being done to let a new generation of politicians start to emerge from a broader section of society. This creates a huge risk of unstable power transition, because of a system built around one person, and thus easily unbalanced if that person is suddenly removed from the equation (by death, uprising etc). So, a good strongman has to also prepare his succession, and ideally, would use his power to prepare the way to a more democratic and broader base of political competition etc following his departure.
Putin rides on the myth that he held together a Russia about to fall apart, and that he raised Russia from its knees and made it more prosperous. He also uses the myth that the 1990s here was just all chaos, theft and banditry, while now we have stability. Let me just say that people have terribly short memories. And I'd say too that Putin has certainly done a lot to prepare the way for even more chaos, and as for the theft, corruption, murders and so on, they've never stopped.
But then, I've never actually seen Putin in the category of strongman. To me he is a rather weak and chance figure, a good manipulator, and has become the symbol of what is really just a whole huge clan of disparate people united by their great interest in stuffing their own pockets full while they can. I certainly don't wish this on China. If China were to enter a period of rule under a military strongman, I would really hope that this would make China stronger and set its system on a course towards a more democratic foundation with genuine broad support, and not undermine the country's very foundations, as what Russia has unfortunately ended up with.

As for the possibility of something happening, and people getting to a point where they are fed up enough, I certainly think the potential is there from what I have seen in the PRC. Often these things come not when expected, and are set off by something seemingly small. I think the underlying potential is there, it just remains to be seen what will light the fuse.

#64 Nikha

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 12:13 AM

sorry

Edited by Nikha, 06 April 2011 - 01:06 AM.


#65 ZhangWuMian

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 12:27 AM

IMO, most of the people want China to be a modern democracy, and probably Taiwan can be a role model for democracy. KMT having fled to Taiwan had learned about the lessons of its defeat in mainland China. They implemented land reforms in Taiwan during the 1950s and developed Taiwan's economy (there existed a Taiwan economic miracle during the 1970s and 80s). With the removal of martial law in 1987, Taiwan gradually democratized (as pushed by DPP) and become a modern democracy. Today's it's a developed nation. Of course during the martial law, Taiwan was under a one party dictatorship by KMT (there is even white terror). But during the 1980s, the rise of various external parties in Taiwan such as DPP forced KMT to give up on its one party dictatorship. After 1987 with the removal of martial law, the ban on establishing political parties in Taiwan was lifted. The ban on press was also removed and Taiwan gradually progressed towards a democracy.


Those who believe that modern democracy can be successfully adopted by or imposed on any general population in the world are mistaken. You can predict whether a non-democratic population will be successful in democracy by the current trajectory of the change in mentality of its members, and that trajectory does not point upwards for the mainland Chinese.

You cannot compare the KMT with the CCP, because there is one fundamental difference between the two. This difference is best illustrated by a story from a colleague. Back when the PLA was entering Beiping (now know as Beijing) to "liberate" it, they organized bands of people to beat drums and clap cymbals to accompany them. Upon hearing the noise, my colleague's grandfather supposedly said: "土包子要進城了", which roughly translates to: "Here come the bumpkins", or, to better reflect the spirit of the quote in the Western context, "Here come the rednecks".

The KMT are not the sort of people who would believe in 畝產萬斤 without actually verifying it. They would not systematically execute college professors for simply being college professors. They would not systematically smash cultural relics as a matter of policy. They would not even brainwash the population to anywhere near the degree as the CCP. In other words, the KMT may be dictatorial, cruel, and corrupt, but they do not typically display redneck behavior (i.e., anti-common sense, anti-knowledge, anti-culture). And simply because of that, you cannot extrapolate what happened in Taiwan to mainland China.

Mainland China today is, more or less, a country of 1.3 billion rednecks, notwithstanding all its skyscrapers, wind farms, and bullet trains. Whatever puzzling, bizarre, and unsavory behavior one may observe in the PRC, either the state or the people, can be easily explained by applying this simple concept. And rednecks can handle democracy about as well as monkeys can handle calculus.

#66 Nikha

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 12:51 AM

1.Why do you want to adopt a system that practised by Indian government?
Indonesia and Thailand also have their democrazy, why do you think PRC should be governed by Indonesia and Thai style? Could you explain to me, please?

2.Why not we support merging PRC and USA as one country? Just give people from Hunan and California equal rights? They will have two capital city: Beijing and Washington DC.The first president will be American for maximum eight years in office, the next will be Chinese, also eight years. The third will be back to American, the forth will be Chinese.
What the use of barking about 'democrazy' why just American share the responsibilty, share the prosperity, share the opportunity?
Why just give millions poor rural Chinese high payment jobs in US cities?

What the use making paper statue of Liberty at Tian An Men square? Can the paper statue feed and solve the problem of 1,3 billion coolies and slaves?

#67 baybal

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 02:23 AM

1.Why do you want to adopt a system that practised by Indian government?
Indonesia and Thailand also have their democrazy, why do you think PRC should be governed by Indonesia and Thai style? Could you explain to me, please?

2.Why not we support merging PRC and USA as one country? Just give people from Hunan and California equal rights? They will have two capital city: Beijing and Washington DC.The first president will be American for maximum eight years in office, the next will be Chinese, also eight years. The third will be back to American, the forth will be Chinese.
What the use of barking about 'democrazy' why just American share the responsibilty, share the prosperity, share the opportunity?
Why just give millions poor rural Chinese high payment jobs in US cities?

What the use making paper statue of Liberty at Tian An Men square? Can the paper statue feed and solve the problem of 1,3 billion coolies and slaves?

Well, 1.3 billion are still coolies and slaves. It's nohow possible for communism to solve their problems. Communist reactionaries are the root of the problem.

#68 baybal

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 02:28 AM

I've been monitoring PRC's media recently. I see that CCP's propaganda took a very strange stance: they began to report on middle eastern revolutions and bashing Arab dictators. Do the think that it will make them look whiter in a relative comparison?

#69 mariusj

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 02:40 AM

1.Why do you want to adopt a system that practised by Indian government?
Indonesia and Thailand also have their democrazy, why do you think PRC should be governed by Indonesia and Thai style? Could you explain to me, please?

Who said anything about the Indian government?
Either way, you are shifting the subject. There could be many forms of democracy, and it is the people who are responsible for what form of democracy they want. It is their duties as citizen to pick if they want a health democracy or not.
Just because there are good dictatorship and bad democracy does not mean authoritarian government are INNATELY good and democracy leads to chaos; in fact, democracy takes the shape in which the citizen chose - healthy or not, while authoritarian government's nature limit them to the whim of a small group of man or one man.

2.Why not we support merging PRC and USA as one country? Just give people from Hunan and California equal rights? They will have two capital city: Beijing and Washington DC.The first president will be American for maximum eight years in office, the next will be Chinese, also eight years. The third will be back to American, the forth will be Chinese.
What the use of barking about 'democrazy' why just American share the responsibilty, share the prosperity, share the opportunity?
Why just give millions poor rural Chinese high payment jobs in US cities?

Why the moon don't join the earth, or the Sun join Jupiter?
It is pretty easy to ask illogical questions to pretend you have a point.

On the other hand, what is wrong with giving people the same rights? If you believe, as we do, that all man are create equal, then what is wrong with giving everyone the same right. As for rotating presidency, its just foolish. What the people will, they receive.
On the other hand, US share responsibility and prosperity, albeit also misfortune around. I don't see your problem.

As for high paying jobs, you do realize the amount of education and knowledge and experience determines your wage, while a small parts depends on who you know, in America. On the other hand, what does million of poor rural Chinese have that deserves these wages?
You can put responsibility, or inability, of the government to educate and equate them to democracy, as it makes no sense.
I honestly recommend you using babel fish.
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/
Try fragments of sentence so that you can better convey your meanings.

What the use making paper statue of Liberty at Tian An Men square? Can the paper statue feed and solve the problem of 1,3 billion coolies and slaves?

It is the logic of fruit of a poisonous tree, you should look it up.

#70 Nikha

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 03:13 AM

Mariusj:
I had written alot but I deleted it. Thank you for the babel fish, but I also have connection problems, as always, very slow.

I couldn't even quote, so I typed your name. About mentioning Indian government:, before you try to copy anything don't look at the most succesful one ( I think we always see US as our model of democrazy).

About the rest, US and PRC have different history, have different cultures, values etc. The poor conditions of the PRC can't be solved by rhetorics.


I write simple and short, I hope you will understand me. Obviously you are better educated than me. I am only older. :greetblink:

#71 baybal

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 08:33 PM

>About the rest, US and PRC have different history, have different cultures, values etc.
>The poor conditions of the PRC can't be solved by rhetorics.

And it wouldn't be solved by commies plebian rhetorics

Edited by baybal, 07 April 2011 - 01:39 AM.


#72 Nikha

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 10:54 PM

>About the rest, US and PRC have different history, have different cultures, values etc.
>The poor conditions of the PRC can't be solved by rhetorics.

And it wouldn't solved by commies plebian rhetorics


:thumbup:

#73 mariusj

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 12:29 AM

Cool it guys.

#74 ahxiang

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:01 PM

Those who believe that modern democracy can be successfully adopted by or imposed on any general population in the world are mistaken. You can predict whether a non-democratic population will be successful in democracy by the current trajectory of the change in mentality of its members, and that trajectory does not point upwards for the mainland Chinese.

You cannot compare the KMT with the CCP, because there is one fundamental difference between the two. This difference is best illustrated by a story from a colleague. Back when the PLA was entering Beiping (now know as Beijing) to "liberate" it, they organized bands of people to beat drums and clap cymbals to accompany them. Upon hearing the noise, my colleague's grandfather supposedly said: "土包子要進城了", which roughly translates to: "Here come the bumpkins", or, to better reflect the spirit of the quote in the Western context, "Here come the rednecks".

The KMT are not the sort of people who would believe in 畝產萬斤 without actually verifying it. They would not systematically execute college professors for simply being college professors. They would not systematically smash cultural relics as a matter of policy. They would not even brainwash the population to anywhere near the degree as the CCP. In other words, the KMT may be dictatorial, cruel, and corrupt, but they do not typically display redneck behavior (i.e., anti-common sense, anti-knowledge, anti-culture). And simply because of that, you cannot extrapolate what happened in Taiwan to mainland China.

Mainland China today is, more or less, a country of 1.3 billion rednecks, notwithstanding all its skyscrapers, wind farms, and bullet trains. Whatever puzzling, bizarre, and unsavory behavior one may observe in the PRC, either the state or the people, can be easily explained by applying this simple concept. And rednecks can handle democracy about as well as monkeys can handle calculus.



Numerous records I read about mentioned how the Pekingers felt DISGUSTING about what you described as "to beat drums and clap cymbals", namely, niu yang ge or 扭秧歌. When extrapolated by the Communists for political purpose, it mutated into a form of vulgar expression that was on the surface sexually provocative. The communist way of sexual revolution was a form of exercising sexual monopoly by the higher ranking communist leadership, by the way, as well as a way to reward the rank and file with stipulations and rules as to how the maids and maidens were to be allocated according to the work performance.

Similarly, the northern Shenxi lyrics, so-called "xin tian you" (信天游), which was originally a form of singing by young men and women in courtship, mixed with repeating Christian and Catholic hoorays (hu ya hai ya), was twisted by the Communists to serve the purpose of revolution, with lots of provocative words added for the purpose of adding libedo to the communist soldiers as if their "imaginery" girls in hometowns were looking forward to them fighting bravely in battles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangge

Edited by ahxiang, 07 April 2011 - 11:07 PM.

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#75 General_Zhaoyun

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:59 AM

The discussion is getting quite heated here. I will close this thread for a while as it is attracting lots of flies (and re-opened it in the future if there is any further development on this political issues). Politics discussion should be kept to a minimum in CHF to prevent too much heat. This has always been our policy.
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