With the villager's quote, it is still true that many are and were very different. Enough where they could consider each other as foreigners. In the Guangdong region, yes, there were many local wars because of that sentiment, especially between the Hakka and others. That conflict spilled over in the overseas areas, even as far as the Americas. There were local wars among the Chinese miners who were labeled as gang rivalries but it was mostly village rivalries.
That is certainly true, but I find it difficult to believe they would be indifferent b/w foreigners and people from other village w/out any incentive, which is what I mean when I say degrees of foreignness. Also, local fighting for some resources, natural or not, were recorded far back, and I remember the earliest I seen was during Qin time [not the Empire] where a recorded cases of several villages fighting for water sources and lot of people died; it then went on mention that they also went to war together against the other states. Which is why I said there is a degree of foreignness, like human anywhere anytime, we have layers circles in which we place all objects in them according to our perception of 'like me?'
Local customs on many things are different, much like anywhere else in the world, and I believe its due more to geological and natural resources than it is to anything else.
With the exclusive comment, I did not type it was not exclusive. What I said was that if there were very clear cut traditions, it would have been much more exclusive than it appears to be. I do have a little bias in that view, I admit, because I am comparing with the traditions among Chinese with others. In doing that, comparably speaking, the "Chinese" traditions are not as exclusive as the others.
Which is exactly what I am disagreeing with.
These customs and tradition are VERY CLEAR CUT.
For example, on marriage, what kind of gifts you can give, what kind of gifts you cannot give, the departing words the father offer to the daughter, the kind of cloth she can wear if it was her first marriage, or if it was not her first marriage. Was she the main wife, or other consorts. Was she the oldest in the family? Did she have children with her?
Or the kind of home you can build, what kind of wood you can use, what kind of color you can use, what kind of door statue and door knob you can use.
Or, when you visit people, what kind of calling card you have to bring, what kind of gifts you have to bring depending on your relationship with that person, what kind of returning and confirmation card you will receive after you send a calling card, what kind of gift you will receive after you bring your gifts, etc.
Or, at what time do you enter a family celebration of holidays, at which seat, at which hour, with what kind of cloth. Where do you get to place your name on roaster, where is your tomb, what kind of tomb can you have, how large the stone and the decoration, etc.
Ancient China is DEFINED by these clear cut tradition, from what you wear, to what you eat, to what you drink, to when you eat and drink, to when you can do your private things, all these have more than just unspoken rules but written rules.
With the quote regarding the ventures. I admitted I was wrong in that view and clarified that I wish they venture out more than they did. In a sense, that response was redundant. The first time I said this
"If the Han group of the past were aware and confident in their identity, chances are, the Chinese of the past would probably be more entice to venture off beyond their realms..."
The second time I said this.
"Regarding the fourth quote, yeah, you are right. It's my fault for not typing well. I should have said venture out more beyond their realms because in my mind, I was thinking of venturing out as in more explorations and conquests..."
Can you see the differences with those two?
When you add the beyond their realms, what do you mean?
Are you saying they didn't venture out enough? I am not too sure but the difference isn't too much to me. Are you saying there wasn't a lot of explorations and conquests? Because if you are, well, no modern nation was formed without conquests of some sort, and China didn't become her size today by peaceful expansion.
About the 華夏貴胄, I was already aware that the manners and rituals the nobles carried out to distinguish different identities were complicated. IMO, I'm not sure whatever the nobles and upper stratas of society practice always translated to what everyone else in society did.
Actually, I was never talking about nobles. The idea of nobility is not strong in China as in other territories, the gentries are far more powerful from the time of Han and down.
The phrase was never intended to distinguish a class, but rather EVERYONE who was Hua Xia is noble scion, rather than a class of nobility that really mingled with the gentries.
And while it is true many practices of the upper class might not translate to what everyone else was doing, the idea that been Hua Xia is superior is most likely in everyone's mind, or at least those under Han control territory.
I don't have access to sources because I'm not an actual scholar, just an amateur, but I can search on the internet and in local libraries for information. Maybe you can direct me to some good links or references so I can learn more.
Few people here are.
If you can read Chinese, this is an excellent site.
www.guoxue.com
On further note, I have been reading some of the posts in the forums of some of these Han "nationalists" (if you all don't like the term supremacists) and that article linked by vorbei.
I couldn't care less what they are called. Nationalism of any sort is ugly.
I am not really arguing that they don't exist, but I do think that most things exists for a reason, ugly or not. For example, I can completely understand why there is a rampant nationalism in Korea, for very piratical reason that they need to remain Korean and not be swallow up by some large nation exporting their culture and claiming everything everywhere. I can also understand why China needs some form of nationalism, but due more to the Kang You Wei style than what is more popular now days. I would prefer some rationale in the irrational love.
