86 replies to this topic

[mohistManiac]

Shiji said
汤封夏之後，至周封於杞也。
Zheng yi kuo di zhi said
汴州雍丘县，古杞国城也。周武王封禹後，号东楼公也。
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Shiji also said
封纣子武庚、禄父，以续殷祀，令修行盘庚之政。殷民大说。於是周武王为天子。其後世贬帝号，号为王。而封殷後为诸侯，属周。 周武王崩，武庚与管叔、蔡叔作乱，成王命周公诛之，而立微子於宋，以续殷後焉。

It is very clear that its nothing like the terminators. In fact, dynastic succession in China is far more kind than any other.

Well the culture is going to be splintered off as those who were in power become replaced by those who don't share the exact same values as you do. At this time it will be clear that an unequal status development in favor of those that come to rule is going to be what separates those that would like to create the new culture from those that used to. They may choose to allow the culture to remain quite the same but they may also change it drastically according to their tastes.

[Eidolon]

From what I know, the Neolithic cultures of the Lower Yangtze were among the first to mine jade and raise silkworms. Even if there were jade products and silkworm products at other Neolithic sites, it is likely that those were trade goods. Much of the elites during the Neolithic often traded their luxury goods with each other. Erligang was considered to be an Early Shang neolithic culture, and that Erlitou was a precursor culture that was replaced entirely by Erligang. It is theorized to be Xia, but since the Xia left no written records, we don't know for sure. And I dislike how people associate linguistic groups with Neolithic cultures. We certainly don't know what language they spoke, they might have spoken language isolates. This often serves nationalists of whatever nation to associate a particular culture to some ethno-linguistic group just to make irredentist claims. And even by looking at a map, those cultures often overlapped with one another, honeycombed near unrelated settlements. And of course, Chinese historians, as well as other East Asian historians, love to connect their mythological fairy tales with actual neolithic cultures, history and archaeology.

But I honestly think we're getting derailed and going off topic quite a bit here.

The Xinglongwa culture is usually considered the earliest for jade working. Silk worms is a matter of contention, but the two choices seem to be the Lower Yangtze and the Lower-Middle Yellow River.

As far as being on-topic goes, I think much of this discussion is in fact pertinent, since Han Nationalism and/or Supremacism is in part based on a belief in historical ethnic essentialism/stasis, much like other variations of the same ideology. But I do also think that a great deal of it is about modern ethno-politics, which is under-discussed in this thread, perhaps because people here tend to be more familiar with older history.

[Gan]

Keep going guys, it's an informative discussion.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

If one observe a typical Han nationalist online, one will discover some general characteristics they share:


1) They are all interested in history, but instead of enjoying it, they pick out parts and lament over it.
2) They spent most of their time for the Han cause because the only thing they do is reading history(nationalist ones at that). They are usually not successful in anything else because if they were, they wouldn't waste their time posting Han propaganda online.
3) They have a very strong and often extreme ideals, but haven't done anything solid, and hence most of them are living in their own pre-conveived fantasy. The internet is the best place for them to escape the harsh reality because its the only place where they could construct an image where they are actually doing something useful, and make them more important than they are in real life.


Here is a glimpse at the actual suffering that they face in real life and how they are complaining over it:
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=975973849

We shouldn't be angry at them, but feel pity.

[Yizheng]

If one observe a typical Han nationalist online, one will discover some general characteristics they share:


1) They are all interested in history, but instead of enjoying it, they pick out parts and lament over it.
2) They spent most of their time for the Han cause because the only thing they do is reading history(nationalist ones at that). They are usually not successful in anything else because if they were, they wouldn't waste their time posting Han propaganda online.
3) They have a very strong and often extreme ideals, but haven't done anything solid, and hence most of them are living in their own pre-conveived fantasy. The internet is the best place for them to escape the harsh reality because its the only place where they could construct an image where they are actually doing something useful, and make them more important than they are in real life.


Here is a glimpse at the actual suffering that they face in real life and how they are complaining over it:
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=975973849

We shouldn't be angry at them, but feel pity.

Yes indeed, well said. Ah, and such a pitiable little story in the link you give, such a sad life. Pretty typical of nationalists everywhere, stuff on that Han minzu site could just be the same as what you find on other people's nationalist sites, you just replace 'han' with whatever other ethnic group. It's all the same drivel the world over. People who think they are cultivating pride in their culture and heritage, and really are just disgracing it.
But I just don't understand nationalism. I'm just a 'rootless cosmopolitan', liked they'd have said in Stalin-era USSR. It is normal and good to have pride in one's own culture and heritage, and to study it, discuss it etc, but I just never understood why this desire to prove some kind of 'purity'. I guess I just don't care. To me all peoples are as good as each other, and I don't care what mix got into them, including my own ancestors and myself. I always think it's kind of strange that people get so rabidly attached to these things, when ultimately, who knows, maybe they were a Manchu bannerman in a past life.
Nationalism is dangerous and stupid in my view. It's the product of people with inferiority complexes and ignorant minds.

[Eidolon]

Yes indeed, well said. Ah, and such a pitiable little story in the link you give, such a sad life. Pretty typical of nationalists everywhere, stuff on that Han minzu site could just be the same as what you find on other people's nationalist sites, you just replace 'han' with whatever other ethnic group. It's all the same drivel the world over. People who think they are cultivating pride in their culture and heritage, and really are just disgracing it.
But I just don't understand nationalism. I'm just a 'rootless cosmopolitan', liked they'd have said in Stalin-era USSR. It is normal and good to have pride in one's own culture and heritage, and to study it, discuss it etc, but I just never understood why this desire to prove some kind of 'purity'. I guess I just don't care. To me all peoples are as good as each other, and I don't care what mix got into them, including my own ancestors and myself. I always think it's kind of strange that people get so rabidly attached to these things, when ultimately, who knows, maybe they were a Manchu bannerman in a past life.
Nationalism is dangerous and stupid in my view. It's the product of people with inferiority complexes and ignorant minds.

Purity is part and parcel of the collectivist mindset, which is encouraged by the modern conception of nation as practiced in East Asia. Confucian culturalism may have encouraged the formation of bonds without any reference to purity beyond the ideological level, but the post-racial world has different presumptions about what ought to be the "natural" level of political community. Such beliefs, while controlled by political correctness, are a latent force in the modern world. I don't think anyone could seriously argue, for example, that "physical race" has no bearing on the way identities are constructed even in the West.

Yet as much as I attribute this to Western modernity, some of it also has to do with the East Asian fixation on genealogy and clan. Consider the degree to which lineage formed the basis for political legitimization in ancient China and you will find that the transition to a racialist view of affairs (but unsurprisingly biased towards "paternal race") is not particularly surprising. Why do Han nationalists entertain a belief in common genetic descent? You may as well ask the same question to the Warring States gentry that popularized the Huangdi myth, and in doing so began the practice of tracing all Chinese people to the same paternal origin. Indeed, one could make the case that part of becoming Chinese, even in the ancient world, was to buy into the ideological construct of common descent. Clearly, the idea has profound power realized by even the ancients.

The German sociologist Max Weber had the following to say about the definition of ethnic groups:

"[Ethnic groups are] those human groups that entertain a subjective belief in their common descent because of similarities of physical type or of customs or both, or because of memories of colonization and migration; this belief must be important for group formation; furthermore it does not matter whether an objective blood relationship exists."

If beliefs in common descent and subjective blood relations are fundamental to the formation of ethnic identities, then in an age of ethnic nationalism they would "naturally" take on political significance.

Edited by Eidolon, 19 March 2011 - 01:17 AM.

[WuGuo]

In my opinion I get the moral issue of nationalism and how racism usually plays a part but I can see after being "humiliated by barbarians"(by what extent I don't know) it was a sense of pride to unite the supposedly huaxia culture.
Another idea is that how China has been conquered by Mongols, Manchurians and other cases they don't have anything else to cling on expect the history. I read that Han Chinese have larger amounts of common haplogroup than while mitochondrial DNA varies from North to South.

[JimCanuck]

Well, I'm a white guy, so my opinion may not count as much, but I find, being friends with Chinese, dating them, and currently living with one. Here in Canada, they are ALL Chinese if you ask them. Only when they talk with themselves they mention nationalities/regional differences.

But even European countries have this kind of thinking when they are here. They will mention "I am from northern (country name)" or "I am from southern (country name)" but only with themselves, but if someone who is not one of them asks what they are, they well always say "I am from (country name). So that I don't see much of a difference.

And no matter what their ethic origin, seeing a Chinese girl with a white guy is always a good reason to stare and/or give dirty looks, especially towards her, not so much me.

Jim

[LoveNStrife]

First post here...Hi, everyone!

Well, here's the ironic part: I'm against Han nationalists, but Han nationalists are actually not against Overseas Chinese.

First, we must understand two kinds of "Chineseness". There are those who believe that Chineseness is defined through blood, culture, ethnicity. There are those who believe that Chineseness is defined through nationality (e.g. PRC nationals).

The government promotes both views, but leans more toward the second. Han nationalists in fact believe in the first, which means they believe in Chinese solidarity worldwide.

For me, opposing Han nationalists raises conflicting emotions. On the one hand, Han nationalists believe in pan-Chinese solidarity, which I believe in too. On the other hand, they oppose Manchus, which I disagree with...

Another point to make: We Overseas Chinese people should really unite with each other. This way, we will have more bargaining power over mainlanders.

Edited by LoveNStrife, 25 June 2011 - 04:46 AM.

[moobie]

The notion of "Han supremacism" is a joke. It's far more harmful as a boogeyman employed by anti-Chinese nationalist trolls to demonize and silence all Chinese people. Of all the "supremacist" movements this tiny, insignificant minority of Chinese people are far less venomous than neo-Nazis, pan-Turanists, Zionists, fundamentalist Islam, etc and other bona fide racist butchers.

And no matter what their ethic origin, seeing a Chinese girl with a white guy is always a good reason to stare and/or give dirty looks, especially towards her, not so much me.

This is because many similar couples give you guys a bad name. It's not your fault, but lots of sleazebags go to China to exploit socioeconomically disadvantaged women - including many Overseas Chinese.

[JimCanuck]

This is because many similar couples give you guys a bad name. It's not your fault, but lots of sleazebags go to China to exploit socioeconomically disadvantaged women - including many Overseas Chinese.

Then they should make me feel uncomfortable not her, the one who can speak better English then most of them as she was "re-educated" here when she went for a second BA after the one she had received from China.

Jim

[Loong]

Actually, extremist are a weird lot. These are what I observe;

When they speak to none chinese descent (e.g. caucasian), they say - you're not even chinese;
When they speak to a chinese descent (e.g. oversea chinese), they say - you're not even born in china;
When they speak to a chinese citizen (but not han), they say - you're not even a han;
When they speak to a fellow han chinese, they say - you're not a pure blood
When they speak to their brother, they'll probably say - you're not ME!

We can find excuses for them. but essentially, they are self centered, and love themselves too much to care about bigger picture. We accept an identity which has its ups and downs. We have wronged other ethnic groups in history, and vice versa. But there's no superiority in our ethinicity. There is superiority in the human moral and ethical behaviour.

Sometimes, I get carried away when my heritage is being attacked, but you'll need to accept if the facts are there. There's a fine line between pride, and blatant extremist behaviour.