104 replies to this topic

[sinwung]

I'm a new member on this forum. Hope to find more about Chi You/the Hmong King.
If anyone can provide more infos about his kingdom. Pretty much I have found nada about his kingdom with the exception that he was a monster with deformed arms, eyes and head;while Yuan di was the perfect emperor.

Now I have read some articles that the Korean claimed Chi You was their king as well.

[nan tribes]

The Ancient Jiu Li


Hmong people venerating Chiyou


Chiyou's Temple and Statue in Yanggu County, Shandong




Miao/Hmong museum in Guizhou








Is Chiyou "CHIWOO" also Korean?

Edited by nan tribes, 19 March 2011 - 01:42 AM.

[sinwung]

Thank you , nan tribe.

By the way..are u a Hmong yourself??

[Eidolon]

The first question you have to answer is whether Chi You even existed. Huang Di and Yan Di are today considered myths. Chi You goes in the same category.

The second question you have to answer is when Hmong began claiming Chi You as their ancestor.

The third is when Koreans began claiming Chi You as their ancestor.

Personally speaking, I don't think Koreans traditionally claimed Chi You as their ancestor, as the Dangun myth was much more popular. It is possible that the claim to Chi You only came about in recent times among revisionist circles, though it is true that ancient Koreans may have been diverse in their worship of primal ancestors, and only later established a genealogy that connected all of them.

As for the Hmong, it is more difficult to say. Most of the members familiar with classic Chinese records regarding the Hmong have since left this board.

[sinwung]

Eido,

your questions are irrelevant. If Chi You not existed, why would they worship his legacies ??? People would rather commemorate a frog or any animal ...right!

What we need is some facts about Chi You not personal opinions and certainly you're prorogatively to your wishes.

[Eidolon]

Well, there's the problem. People used to believe in all kinds of myths that are not based on facts. You said that facts regarding Chi You are needed. But if he was a myth, then there would be no facts. And indeed, there are very few facts about Chi You. Most of his story is based on the same mythological foundations as Huang Di and Yan Di, in which he plays the role of antagonist, and so scholars of Chi You are met with the same factual deficiencies as scholars of Huang Di and Yan Di. This is not an opinion; it is an observation. Chinese scholars can claim that Huang Di invented the south pointing chariot in 2700 BC, but the fact is that no chariots were found in China until the Shang era. You have two options at that point - accept the fact or cling on to the legend. If you're of the latter sort, then the only "facts" you have to go on are books of Chinese myths and folk tales. There's nothing illegal in believing these books uncritically, but don't expect most modern scholars to do the same.

Edited by Eidolon, 28 March 2011 - 06:01 PM.

[mariusj]

Eido,

your questions are irrelevant. If Chi You not existed, why would they worship his legacies ??? People would rather commemorate a frog or any animal ...right!

What we need is some facts about Chi You not personal opinions and certainly you're prorogatively to your wishes.

I agree.

If the Great Zeus did not exist, why would the Greeks worship him? Why would anyone worship a thunder throwing, pants dropping, bull loving God unless he is real?

This is a logical fallacy where because people worship someone's legacies then they must exist. People are wrong all the time. What makes ancient people's worship anything fact proving?

[sinwung]

Well, there's the problem. People used to believe in all kinds of myths that are not based on facts. You said that facts regarding Chi You are needed. But if he was a myth, then there would be no facts. And indeed, there are very few facts about Chi You. Most of his story is based on the same mythological foundations as Huang Di and Yan Di, in which he plays the role of antagonist, and so scholars of Chi You are met with the same factual deficiencies as scholars of Huang Di and Yan Di. This is not an opinion; it is an observation. Chinese scholars can claim that Huang Di invented the south pointing chariot in 2700 BC, but the fact is that no chariots were found in China until the Shang era. You have two options at that point - accept the fact or cling on to the legend. If you're of the latter sort, then the only "facts" you have to go on are books of Chinese myths and folk tales. There's nothing illegal in believing these books uncritically, but don't expect most modern scholars to do the same.

So , your point is Huang Di wasn't existed and so the Han people,it is an assumption from the Chinese Scholars onely point of views.

"You have two options at that point - accept the fact or cling on to the legend. If you're of the latter sort, then the only "facts" you have to go on are books of Chinese myths and folk tales"

My question to you is ...was Huang Di the Yellow Emperor and the first Emperor of the Han people ??

[Eidolon]

There is no concrete evidence that Huang Di existed, or that he was an actual emperor even if he did, so I have to go with "no." The first sources on Huang Di date to the Eastern Zhou period, before which there was no mention of Huang Di in Chinese records. How the legend suddenly came into being is an interesting subject of study - perhaps Huang Di is an anthropomorphic manifestation of some ancient tribal memory - but the details are mythical, not factual. The same scrutiny must be applied to Chi You, as well as other mythical figures in East Asian history. As the poster above you stated, modern historiography does not attribute historicity to Greek myths. So why should they do so for East Asian ones?

[mariusj]

So , your point is Huang Di wasn't existed and so the Han people,it is an assumption from the Chinese Scholars onely point of views.

"You have two options at that point - accept the fact or cling on to the legend. If you're of the latter sort, then the only "facts" you have to go on are books of Chinese myths and folk tales"

My question to you is ...was Huang Di the Yellow Emperor and the first Emperor of the Han people ??

No.

No Emperor till QSHD.

And no Han people till at least Han dynasty.

So how could someone few thousands years before be an Emperor and of the Han people?

Edited by mariusj, 29 March 2011 - 08:14 PM.

[bloodmerchant]

So , your point is Huang Di wasn't existed and so the Han people,it is an assumption from the Chinese Scholars onely point of views.

"You have two options at that point - accept the fact or cling on to the legend. If you're of the latter sort, then the only "facts" you have to go on are books of Chinese myths and folk tales"

My question to you is ...was Huang Di the Yellow Emperor and the first Emperor of the Han people ??

Nope. The concept of an Emperor wasn't until Qin Shihuang unified all of China.

My wonder is if all this belief in fairy tales is the product of nationalism or vice versa.

If there was really a Yellow Emperor, why are there no Shang oracle bones or Western Zhou records about the 'Yellow Emperor'? If there was no Yellow Emperor, there was no Chiyou, there was no Yu the Great, etc. Chinese scholars have a strong penchant for associating fairy tales with actual historiography. They even had an archaeological expedition to prove that Xia existed (not that it didn't exist, just that there is no strong evidence linking Erlitou culture to Xia). Then, if such myths are real, then why are there no people desperate to prove that Greek gods exist? I'm certain both Zeus and the Yellow Emperor were mythological. If you think the Yellow Emperor was real, then do you think that Zeus was real?

[mohistManiac]

Emperor is Huang Di. The three Huangs and five Dis aren't actually considered emperors as in the actual terms but were rather like community leaders or even lords, kings or earls. Either way emperor is established for QSHD because the rule was absolute as he delegated all the tasks via a center command rather than the former systems where people like the Shi nobles from each part of the known territories came to offer their worth but without necessary allegiance.

Edited by mohistManiac, 30 March 2011 - 12:00 AM.

[sinwung]

Well,

I just want to verify some of these infos.,
be my guests and jump in at any time. Whether the Chinese History is reflecting the truth or not ...it's a bla bla conversation. I'm not pointing anything to God's existing ....that will be a far too many point of views to consider.
And I'm absolutely....I agree...with many of you, there are no concrete evidences or conviencing evidences but circumstancial evidences were cited.

Let's look at these versions below:

Emperor of China.

Yellow emperor
Ancestral name (姓): Gōngsūn (公孫)[1]
Given name (名): Xuānyuán (軒轅)[1]
One of Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors
Dates of reign: 2696–2598 BCE [2]
Official title: Yellow Emperor (黃帝)
Temple name: None.
Posthumous name: None.
Dates are in the proleptic Julian calendar
Huang di
Traditional Chinese 黃帝
Simplified Chinese 黄帝
Literal meaning Yellow Emperor


Huang Di or the Yellow Emperor, is a half-historical, half-legendary Chinese sovereign and cultural hero presented in Chinese history and mythology. He is said to be the ancestor of all Huaxia Chinese.[3] According to many sources he was one of the legendary Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors.[4] Tradition holds that he reigned from 2697–2597 BCE[5] or 2696–2598 BCE.[2] He is regarded as the founder of Chinese civilization.[2]



[edit] Name of Yellow emperorIn the first annal of the Records of the Grand Historian, the opening few words of the first paragraph give the identity of the Yellow emperor.[1] Sima Qian, author of the records, gave considerable weight to the historicity of the emperor. For example, the Three Sovereigns has Fu Xi, Nüwa, and Yan emperor/Shennong, but he carefully chose to begin with the Yellow Emperor.[6] He refrained from beginning the records with any of the other legendary figures of claimed greater antiquity.[6]

The Yellow emperor's surname was Gōngsūn (公孙/公孫), while his first name was Xuānyuán (轩辕/軒轅).[7] His full name was Gōngsūn Xuānyuán (公孫軒轅). He also used the assumed names of Xuānyuán-shi (轩辕氏/軒轅氏) and Youxiong-shi (有熊氏).[8] Xuānyuán is said by some to be the name of a village.[2] Youxiong was a name taken from his heredity.[2]

[edit] Early yearsThe Yellow emperor and the Yan emperor were both leaders of a tribe that benefited from the proximity of the Yellow river.[9] According to the tradition, the Yellow emperor's birth place is believed to be in Shou Qiu, today on the outskirts of the city of Qufu in Shandong Province. Early on, he lived with his tribe in the northwest near the Ji river (姬水), later migrating to Zhuolu in modern day Hebei Province (涿鹿).[9] He then became a farmer and tamed six different special beasts, the bear (熊), brown bear (罴/羆), the pí (貔) and xiū (貅) which later combined to form the mythical Pixiu with its appetite for gold and silver, the ferocius chū (貙) and the tiger (虎).[9] The Yan emperor hailed from a different area.

Both emperors lived in a time of warfare.[10] The Yan emperor was unable to control the disorder within his realm thus the Yellow emperor began taking up arms to establish his domination over various warring factions.[10]

[edit] Achievements
One of the two turtle-based steles at the legendary birthplace of the Yellow Emperor (Shou Qiu)The Yellow emperor is also known as an inventor who improved the livelihood of the nomadic hunter lifestyle. He taught people how to build shelters, tame wild animals and grow the five Chinese cereals.[8] He also invented carts, boats and clothing.[8] At the Yellow emperor's request, historian Cāng Jié created the first Chinese character writing system, changing the way history was recorded in the following dynasties through the use of Oracle bone script.[8] The system later became the basis for the genealogy of many scripts. The Yellow emperor's principal wife Léizǔ taught people how to weave silk from Bombyx mori silkworms and dye clothes.[8]

Most recognized today is the Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon on internal medicine, supposedly the oldest medical book that forms the basis of Traditional Chinese medicine.[2] Though there are doubts that the Yellow emperor was not the author, as it may have been written in collaboration with his physician minister Qibo much later in between the Zhou and Han dynasties.[2]

Other inventions credited to the emperor include the Diadem (冠冕), palace rooms (宮室), bow sling, early Chinese astronomy, the Chinese calendar, calculations, sound laws (音律),[11] football.[12] He is also said to have played a part in the creation of the Guqin musical instrument, together with the Fuxi and Yan emperors.[13] It is also recorded that at that time Ling Lun created music, whilst the Yan emperor created the requisite musical instruments.[14]

It is said that at one point in his reign, the Yellow emperor was also at the mythical East sea and met a talking beast called the Baí Zé who taught him the knowledge of all supernatural creatures.[15][16] This beast explained to him there were 11,522 existing types of supernatural creature , though some sources claim 1,522 types.[15][16]

[edit] Epic battlesMain articles: Battle of Zhuolu and Battle of Banquan
When the Yan emperor was leading his tribe, he met a force of nine Li barbarian tribes (九黎) led by Chi You [9] whereupon the two groups immediately became enemies. According to legend, Chi You had a bronze head and metal forehead.[9] He is said to be unbelievably fierce and possessed 81 brothers,[3] each having four eyes and six arms that wielded terrible sharp weapons in every hand.[3] Their head was also that of a bull with two horns, but the body was that of a human.[3]

The Yan emperor stood no chance and lost the fight. He escaped and later ended up in Zhuolu begging for help from the Yellow emperor.[9] At this point the epic Battle of Zhuolu between Chi You and the forces of the Yellow emperor began. The Yellow emperor rallied his army along with the six types of special beasts that he had tamed.[9] Legend also claims that Chi You breathed out a thick fog and obscured the sunlight.[17] The battle dragged on for days while the emperor's side was in danger.[3]

The Yellow emperor's army fell into disarray and could not find their way out of the battlefield. At this critical moment the emperor invented the South Pointing Chariot, and ordered its construction on the battlefield.[3][17] With the device he was able to lead his army out of the fog. Chi You then conjured up a heavy storm. The Yellow emperor then called upon the drought demon Nuba, who blew away the storm clouds and cleared the battlefield.[3][17] Chi You and his army could not hold up and was later killed off by the Yellow emperor.[9] While this battle was a victory, the Yellow and Yan emperors had a conflict with each other. Thus began the Battle of Banquan at a place called Banquan (阪泉)[9] which the Yan emperor would eventually lose. The ancient place was then renamed "Huangdiquan" (黃帝泉).[18] After this battle, he officially replaced Yan emperor as the official ruler.[10]

[edit] Legacy
[edit] Family of the Yellow emperorMain article: Chinese emperors family tree (ancient)
The Yellow emperor's father was Shaodian (少典), whilst his mother was Fu Pao (附寶).[1][19] The emperor himself had a total of 25 sons, 14 of whom began their own surnames and clans.[1][20] His first wife, Léi Zǔ from Xiling bore him two sons.[1] The oldest was Shaohao, known in the Record of Grand Historian as Xuanxiao (玄囂), who lived in Qingyang by the Yangtze River.[1] Changyi, the younger, lived by the Ruo river (若水). He died and was succeeded by Changyi's son, Zhuanxu.[1] The Yellow emperor had a total of four wives. His other three wives were his second wife Fanglei (封嫘), third wife Tongyu (彤魚) and fourth wife Momu (嫫母).[19][21]

[edit] AncestryMain article: Ethnic groups in Chinese history
According to the Mausoleum of the Yellow Emperor in modern day Shaanxi, the Yellow emperor shares ancestry with that of a Zhongyuan race that went by the surname Ji (姬), which came from the Ji river.[2][8] Three eras of emperor kings were all direct descendants of the Yellow emperor.[11]

1.Zhuanxu, Diku, Tang Yao, Yu Shun[11]
2.Xia dynasty[11]
3.Shang dynasty[11]
Only after the Yellow emperor did people begin to get a better idea of the earliest ancient ancestors of the Zhōnghuá Mínzú or Chinese ethnic groups.[11] Since then, the Yellow emperor is said to be the ancestor of all Huaxia Chinese.[3] Modern day Chinese people generally refer to this ancestral connection as the "Descendants of Yan & Yellow Emperors" (炎黃子孫).[8] Other minority groups in China may have their own myths or do not count as descendants of the emperor.[20] The Yellow emperor and a number of other main tribal leaders at the time formed part of the Yuanshi society.[9]

[edit] Grand exitMain article: Mausoleum of the Yellow Emperor
When the Yellow emperor lived for over a hundred years, he arranged his worldly affairs with his ministers, and prepared for his journey to the Heavens. The close of Yellow emperor's long reign was made glorious by the appearance of a phoenix and a mysterious animal known as the Qilin as tokens of his administration.[2] Two tombs were built in Shaanxi within the Mausoleum of the Yellow Emperor, in addition to others in Henan, Hebei and Gansu provinces.[22] The Yellow Emperor has been commemorated every year since the Spring and Autumn Period.[23]

[edit] Societal influence
A section of the actual poem from the Tong sing[edit] Dynasty erasIn religion, Laozi, from a later period, is generally regarded as the founder of Taoism - but the Yellow Emperor formulated some of the religion's precepts.[24] Other texts associated with the emperor include the Four classics of the Yellow emperor or the Yellow Emperor's Hidden Talisman Classic.[25]

The fortune-telling almanac the Tong sing includes a section titled The Yellow emperor's four seasons poem (軒轅黃帝四季詩日).[24] This work supposedly allows readers to make predictions.[24] It is certain that the emperor himself did not write this poem, but the compiler of the Tong sing assumed mentioning his name would be useful, since the emperor was closely associated with divine beings and the forces of nature.[24]

"Xuanyuan 12" (轩辕十二/軒轅十二), derived from the Yellow emperor's personal name, is also the Chinese star name for Gamma Leonis in the Leo constellation.[26]

King Ying Zheng of the later Qin state hoping to appropriate some of the Yellow emperor's divine status, named himself Qin Shi "Huang", first emperor of Qin dynasty on his unification of China in 221 BCE.[27]

In the Hall of Supreme Harmony in Beijing's Forbidden City there is a mirror called the "Xuanyuan Mirror" (轩辕宝镜/軒轅寶鏡).[28][29]

Edited by sinwung, 30 March 2011 - 01:45 PM.

[sinwung]

Here are some more or further invetigations toward the Chi You's History!!!!!!

Edited by sinwung, 30 March 2011 - 01:26 PM.

[mariusj]

The foundation of Confucian society is based on the idea that the ancient time is the best of time, and that is the ideal world. Thus how could he not give credit to the legendary sage king?

SMQ was certainly not the first one to record legendary characters into history, as he more or less compile most of the ancient stuff. One example was King Arthur was put into history through Annales Cambriae and Historia Brittonum, it does not prove that he is real.