104 replies to this topic

[sinwung]

Mohist and Bloodmerchant,

Thanks for the logical views of yours. As human being some timeswe have to have cognatives beyond our peripheral vision. I do think it makes a lot of sense in many believes and worships ...why they do what they do and why they don't do what they don't do.

Who knows what was like on earth 5-10,000 years ago.

Man were hafl human -hafl god..and the other hafl man -hafl creature .....such ; vampire,witch-craft,Jesus, Buddha,and many other super human being on this planet.

I agree ...only scientific can pin-point the indicia..and up to today we don't know is there an existing God.


Have a wonderful weekend guys !!!!

[mariusj]

Marius,

Here's the preponderant and circumstancial evidences! Where is your that he wasn't real?

Well, I know what preponderant is, and I know what circumstantial evidence is, and I know what Preponderance of the Evidence is.
Preponderant is something that carry a greater weight, circumstantial evidence is an evidence in which an inference is required to connect it to a conclusion of fact, thus contrary to direct evidence which you are actually infer to, and the Preponderance of Evidence is the burden of proof.

To further elaborate, what you have might be circumstantial evidence, I am not sure. It certain is not preponderant.

I don't need any proof except to point out your so called evidence at best is circumstantial, and if we can agree on that then we are good. If not, you will have to show me how a record written by SMQ a few thousands years after is completely true and without any addition.

I would recommend you to actually read Shiji, rather than just google it and post them here. For example, if you did bother reading about these people, you will note a few points pointed out by 史记索隐

少典者，诸侯国号，非人名也。又案：国语云“少典娶有蟜氏女，生黄帝、炎帝”。然则炎帝亦少典之子。炎黄二帝虽则相承，如帝王代纪中间凡隔八帝，五百馀年。若以少典是其父名，岂黄帝经五百馀年而始代炎帝後为天子乎？何其年之长也！又案：秦本纪云“颛顼氏之裔孙曰女脩，吞鸟之卵而生大业，大业娶少典氏而生柏翳”。

Because SMQ said HuangDi is son of Shao Dian, but also that Yan Di and Huang Di were both child of Shao Dian, but there is 500 years apart. So Shao Dian is not someone's name is it? Or that Da Ye was born from a woman swallowing a bird's egg.

Now, if you chose to believe this as circumstantial evidence, be my guest. I am not mocking your belief in ideas that man could live 500 years old and reproduce. Or that children are born from swallowing animal eggs.

Huang Di or the Yellow Emperor, is a half-historical, half-legendary Chinese sovereign and cultural hero presented in Chinese history and mythology. He is said to be the ancestor of all Huaxia Chinese.[3] According to many sources he was one of the legendary Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors.[4] Tradition holds that he reigned from 2697–2597 BCE[5] or 2696–2598 BCE.[2] He is regarded as the founder of Chinese civilization.[2]

More legendary than historical. But I could accept this concept. Heroes are often an ideal.

[edit] Name of Yellow emperorIn the first annal of the Records of the Grand Historian, the opening few words of the first paragraph give the identity of the Yellow emperor.[1] Sima Qian, author of the records, gave considerable weight to the historicity of the emperor. For example, the Three Sovereigns has Fu Xi, Nüwa, and Yan emperor/Shennong, but he carefully chose to begin with the Yellow Emperor.[6] He refrained from beginning the records with any of the other legendary figures of claimed greater antiquity.[6]

You obviously did not read the entire thing.

In conclusion, he wrote

学者多称五帝，尚矣.尚书独载尧以来；而百家言黄帝，其文不雅驯，荐绅先生难言之。孔子所传宰予问五帝德及帝系姓，儒者或不传。......书缺有间矣，其轶乃时时见於他说。非好学深思，心知其意，固难为浅见寡闻道也。余并论次，择其言尤雅者，故著为本纪书首。///
帝出少典，居于轩丘。既代炎历，遂禽蚩尤。高阳嗣位，静深有谋。小大远近，莫不怀柔。爰洎帝喾，列圣同休。帝挚之弟，其号放勋。就之如日，望之如云。郁夷东作，昧谷西曛。明扬仄陋，玄德升闻。能让天下，贤哉二君！

Two parts. I separate them with ///
The first part is obvious, he straight up said, I am actually not sure but I picked up from various records, and pick the nicest of them and put it together as the intro of this book.
SuoYing also noted '索隐言古典残缺有年载，故曰“有间”。然皇帝遗事散轶，乃时时旁见於他记说，即帝德、帝系等说也。故己今采案而备论黄帝已来事耳。' to further strengthen my point that it is not historical.

Second part should be read with background, he is saying how wonderful and how sage like these kings are. What was not said, how is the current one matching up to these two dudes?

[edit] Early yearsThe Yellow emperor and the Yan emperor were both leaders of a tribe that benefited from the proximity of the Yellow river.[9] According to the tradition, the Yellow emperor's birth place is believed to be in Shou Qiu, today on the outskirts of the city of Qufu in Shandong Province. Early on, he lived with his tribe in the northwest near the Ji river (姬水), later migrating to Zhuolu in modern day Hebei Province (涿鹿).[9] He then became a farmer and tamed six different special beasts, the bear (熊), brown bear (罴/羆), the pí (貔) and xiū (貅) which later combined to form the mythical Pixiu with its appetite for gold and silver, the ferocius chū (貙) and the tiger (虎).[9] The Yan emperor hailed from a different area.
Both emperors lived in a time of warfare.[10] The Yan emperor was unable to control the disorder within his realm thus the Yellow emperor began taking up arms to establish his domination over various warring factions.[10]

Can't pick and chose your sources man. If you decide one source is good you can't just use part of it and disregard another that conflict with your idea.

YanDi and HuangDi are at the very least from the same place if not the same family, 500 years apart.

You obviously copied this from somewhere. You should also bring its citation alone, if you wish people to consider it to be legit. It sited from 3x locations.

If you think Huang Di wrote HuangDi Nei Jing then you are wrong. A lot of these have no relevance at all. Ancient Chinese are known to attribute things to the suppose sages in order to bring weight and credit to their work, much like what you are doing right now.

Again, nothing wrong with your belief, but its one thing to say I have faith, and another to say this is true. Faith does not require proof, you simply have it. You can leap off a cliff expecting the angles will pick you up. To say one thing is the truth requires evidence of proof. Of which, legendary tales and books on legendary tales do not work.

[mariusj]

Thanks for the logical views of yours. As human being some timeswe have to have cognatives beyond our peripheral vision. I do think it makes a lot of sense in many believes and worships ...why they do what they do and why they don't do what they don't do.

No one is questioning what you can believe and worship, or why you do what you do.
On the other hand, you try to use Chinese sources to back up claims that have nothing to do with your belief. You are using historical text to try to make a point on historical figure, thus you are challenged.

Who knows what was like on earth 5-10,000 years ago.

We kind of do.

Man were hafl human -hafl god..and the other hafl man -hafl creature .....such ; vampire,witch-craft,Jesus, Buddha,and many other super human being on this planet.

Are you been serious?
Man was not half human half god, or half human half creatures. Scientifically there is no proof of god, thus bringing him in is illogical.

I agree ...only scientific can pin-point the indicia..and up to today we don't know is there an existing God.

Yes, much like we don't know there exist a Huang Di and Chi You. Which is my point, one you obviously cannot grasp.

[sinwung]

Mohist and Bloodmerchant,

Thanks for the logical views of yours. As human being some timeswe have to have cognatives beyond our peripheral vision. I do think it makes a lot of sense in many believes and worships ...why they do what they do and why they don't do what they don't do.

Who knows what was like on earth 5-10,000 years ago.

Man were hafl human -hafl god..and the other hafl man -hafl creature .....such ; vampire,witch-craft,Jesus, Buddha,and many other super human being on this planet.

I agree ...only scientific can pin-point the indicia..and up to today we don't know is there an existing God.


Have a wonderful weekend guys !!!!

Huang Di as The civilization Founder


China is a large nation in the world with one fifth of the world's population. Who is the father of this large country? It is Huangdi that laid the foundation of Chinese civilization and from whom everyone can find the merits of Chinese people living since ancient times. Under Huangdi's leadership, prehistoric Chinese tribal life was transformed and presented a new civilized image to the world.

Huangdi's family lived on Xuanyuan Hill in Xinzheng County, Henan Province, Huang's family name is Gongsun and his first name is Xuanyuan. Because he had a special attachment to the yellow earth, he was called Huangdi by the people ('Huang' in Chinese means yellow symbolizing the yellow earth and 'Di', emperor).

It is recorded that, in the Prehistoric Times, there lived many clans and tribes around the Yellow River and the Yangtze River and Huangdi was the most renowned tribal leader at that time. When the tribe lead by Yandi (Huangdi's close relative) began to decline, Huangdi's tribe was flourishing. During this period, Chiyou often lead his stronger tribe to invade other tribes, and invaded Yandi's tribe. With the help of Huangdi, Chiyou was defeated. Afterward war between Huangdi and Yandi began and when the war ended Huangdi had become the leader of many tribes.

Many outstanding achievements were made during the reign of Huangdi in architecture, science and culture. Palaces and boats were devised, and arithmetic and medicine also began to appear. Huangdi instructed his people to plant corn, and invented tools for guiding the direction of travel. With the help of Huangdi's wife, people began to feed silkworms and spin thread into silk. In addition, characters and musical instruments were invented by his officials. All in all, many creations came from the Huangdi period.



Mausoleum of Huangdi in Yan'an, Shaanxi
Huangdi was buried on the Mt. Qiao (Bridge) in Huangling County, Shaanxi Province, and nowadays Huangdi Mausoleum known as 'The First Mausoleum in China' has been visited by numerous people home and abroad especially on the day of Qingming Festival (April 4th or 5th).

As Huangdi was the first leader with the great moral and superior wisdom that developed early Chinese civilization, the people regard him as the forefather of the Chinese nation and call themselves the offspring of Huangdi.

[bloodmerchant]

Huang Di as The civilization Founder


China is a large nation in the world with one fifth of the world's population. Who is the father of this large country? It is Huangdi that laid the foundation of Chinese civilization and from whom everyone can find the merits of Chinese people living since ancient times. Under Huangdi's leadership, prehistoric Chinese tribal life was transformed and presented a new civilized image to the world.

Huangdi's family lived on Xuanyuan Hill in Xinzheng County, Henan Province, Huang's family name is Gongsun and his first name is Xuanyuan. Because he had a special attachment to the yellow earth, he was called Huangdi by the people ('Huang' in Chinese means yellow symbolizing the yellow earth and 'Di', emperor).

It is recorded that, in the Prehistoric Times, there lived many clans and tribes around the Yellow River and the Yangtze River and Huangdi was the most renowned tribal leader at that time. When the tribe lead by Yandi (Huangdi's close relative) began to decline, Huangdi's tribe was flourishing. During this period, Chiyou often lead his stronger tribe to invade other tribes, and invaded Yandi's tribe. With the help of Huangdi, Chiyou was defeated. Afterward war between Huangdi and Yandi began and when the war ended Huangdi had become the leader of many tribes.

Many outstanding achievements were made during the reign of Huangdi in architecture, science and culture. Palaces and boats were devised, and arithmetic and medicine also began to appear. Huangdi instructed his people to plant corn, and invented tools for guiding the direction of travel. With the help of Huangdi's wife, people began to feed silkworms and spin thread into silk. In addition, characters and musical instruments were invented by his officials. All in all, many creations came from the Huangdi period.



Mausoleum of Huangdi in Yan'an, Shaanxi
Huangdi was buried on the Mt. Qiao (Bridge) in Huangling County, Shaanxi Province, and nowadays Huangdi Mausoleum known as 'The First Mausoleum in China' has been visited by numerous people home and abroad especially on the day of Qingming Festival (April 4th or 5th).

As Huangdi was the first leader with the great moral and superior wisdom that developed early Chinese civilization, the people regard him as the forefather of the Chinese nation and call themselves the offspring of Huangdi.

I think Yandi = anthropmorphism of agriculture and Huangdi = anthropomorphism of the Zhou dynasty-era Huaxia identity, (Eastern) Zhou period Huaxia civilization and Zhou militarism. Remember that the Zhou had to fight off against Rong incursions to the west and often went on expeditions to subdue the Man in the south. Chiyou, along with Huangdi and Yandi, were only concepts that were founded during the Eastern Zhou period- Springs and Autumns period along with Warring States period. So concepts of the Rong, Di, Man and Yi became known collectively as 'Chiyou', the 'adversary' of the Huaxia people and the leader of all the 'barbarians'. It may be as a result that Zhou encountered proto-Hmong people living within and near the Zhou domain, mistook their 'Txiv Yawg' as the main deity of all 'barbarian' peoples. (This is just theory) Also, when it comes to the very foundation of the essence of all Han Chinese culture, it is the Zhou dynasty. Though the Shang dynasty may have left some remnants in modern Han Chinese culture, it is the Zhou who had the most impact in starting the Han Chinese ethos. They were the ones in firing the first shot, so many of what Han Chinese thought of themselves today is based on the Zhou dynasty.

Within the Discourses of the States (Guoyu 國語), a 'Chiyou' was first mentioned as a deity of the Sanmiao people in written text.

《國語·楚語下》：「及少昊氏之衰也，九黎亂德。家為巫史，民神同坐，禍災荐臻。顓頊受之，乃命南正重司天以屬神，命火正黎司地以屬民。使復舊常，無相侵瀆，是謂絕地天通。其後三苖復九黎之德，堯復育重黎之後，不忘舊者。使復典之。」韋註：「少皡，黃帝之子金天氏也。九黎，黎氏九人，蚩尤之徒也。」「其後，高辛氏之季年。三苗，九黎之後。」

Edited by bloodmerchant, 05 April 2011 - 05:14 PM.

[mohistManiac]

I think Yandi = anthropmorphism of agriculture and Huangdi = anthropomorphism of the Zhou dynasty-era Huaxia identity, (Eastern) Zhou period Huaxia civilization and Zhou militarism. Remember that the Zhou had to fight off against Rong incursions to the west and often went on expeditions to subdue the Man in the south. Chiyou, along with Huangdi and Yandi, were only concepts that were founded during the Eastern Zhou period- Springs and Autumns period along with Warring States period. So concepts of the Rong, Di, Man and Yi became known collectively as 'Chiyou', the 'adversary' of the Huaxia people and the leader of all the 'barbarians'. It may be as a result that Zhou encountered proto-Hmong people living within and near the Zhou domain, mistook their 'Txiv Yawg' as the main deity of all 'barbarian' peoples. (This is just theory) Also, when it comes to the very foundation of the essence of all Han Chinese culture, it is the Zhou dynasty. Though the Shang dynasty may have left some remnants in modern Han Chinese culture, it is the Zhou who had the most impact in starting the Han Chinese ethos. They were the ones in firing the first shot, so many of what Han Chinese thought of themselves today is based on the Zhou dynasty.

Within the Discourses of the States (Guoyu 國語), a 'Chiyou' was first mentioned as a deity of the Sanmiao people in written text.

It's really a misrepresentation because while the Zhou dynasty is seen as lasting longest the actual durational time for which can be realistically claimed should only be a portion. How can a severely weakened group of elite come to fashion most of the Han culture? The Zhou dynasty fashioned the mandate of heaven but to me that isn't really system building or symbolically mature for the Han ethos. That is to say that it helps to carry on succession for the elite status people but as far as we know these are replaced every few centuries in the imperial cycle while the Han culture continues on. Zhou dynasty may have contributed to the Confucian ethos but the Confucian ethos is only one of many which were shaping the path of the warring states period, a time which the hundred schools of thought period can actually be considered contributing to most if not all the philosophical characteristics in the ancient Han culture from legalism to mohism. Buddhism also came to heavily involve as well during the Han and that didn't originate from the Zhou on any level. As for the material context the Zhou's bronze culture which was its unsurpassed expression among other forms was already seeing disuse by the time of Han because needless to say it was too elite and would be soon forgotten which contrasts against the Shang period's highest expression which was in the form of oracle script and scapulamancy. The scapulamancy goes away but the script remains.

[mariusj]

How can a severely weakened group of elite come to fashion most of the Han culture?

Yet, despite the Greeks failure to dominate their culture did spread and influence much of Rome, and despite the disappearance of Rome the continuation of its culture continue to influence the west. Even nowadays, Korean culture/ Japanese culture spread into Asia in such dominating force despite their lack of dominating power shows that strength of a group of elites have nothing to do with the capability to influence and fashion others.

The Zhou dynasty fashioned the mandate of heaven but to me that isn't really system building or symbolically mature for the Han ethos.

To contrary, everything is justified through the mandate of heaven.
I can't name something that cannot be associated back to the mandate of heaven. Because through mandate of heaven we derived the justification of social orders, and through social orders come social norms, and through social norms came the culture as we know it.
It is irresponsible to say the mandate of heaven is not the system defining Han.

Zhou dynasty may have contributed to the Confucian ethos but the Confucian ethos is only one of many which were shaping the path of the warring states period, a time which the hundred schools of thought period can actually be considered contributing to most if not all the philosophical characteristics in the ancient Han culture from legalism to mohism.

It is true that Confucianism did not really influence Zhou, but it is far more defining of the entire civilization then any other school. People could go on without knowing who Han Fei Zi is or who Mo Ju is, but to not know the Sage is almost impossible.

Buddhism also came to heavily involve as well during the Han and that didn't originate from the Zhou on any level.

No Buddhism influence during Han. It is considered as Hu prior to Tang. And even after, many consider it as Hu.

[bloodmerchant]

It's really a misrepresentation because while the Zhou dynasty is seen as lasting longest the actual durational time for which can be realistically claimed should only be a portion. How can a severely weakened group of elite come to fashion most of the Han culture? The Zhou dynasty fashioned the mandate of heaven but to me that isn't really system building or symbolically mature for the Han ethos. That is to say that it helps to carry on succession for the elite status people but as far as we know these are replaced every few centuries in the imperial cycle while the Han culture continues on. Zhou dynasty may have contributed to the Confucian ethos but the Confucian ethos is only one of many which were shaping the path of the warring states period, a time which the hundred schools of thought period can actually be considered contributing to most if not all the philosophical characteristics in the ancient Han culture from legalism to mohism.

Now, it wasn't just the main Zhou court, but the other states of the Zhou domain, which were just copies of the Zhou state in proxy which quickly spread and enforced Zhou culture within their demesne. The Zhou state, was effective at spreading culture by this method, but were quite ineffective at enforcing their rule completely. (This didn't really happen during the early part of Western Zhou, but the main Zhou polity increasingly could not enforce their will upon their vassals as time went on) There are occasions where the central Zhou power was literally demolished and reduced to a figurehead status. The Eastern Zhou was founded because of the severe dissatisfaction of the rest of the states. As the central power of the Zhou waned, the other states quickly took over the position as enforcing and spreading Zhou culture.

It doesn't have much to do with Confucianism. Even the Han dynasty was not Confucian at first (they practiced Huang-Lao Daoism). Confucianism, was tailored towards the elite classes. Then Mencius came along and popularized it for the masses. Mencius argued that overthrowing rulers (and killing them) was justified though the mandate of heaven because of the issue whether or not the slaying of King Zhou of Shang was under the definition of regicide. Everything is justified through the Mandate of Heaven. If a ruler happened to be decadent and then suddenly all sorts of earthquakes, natural disasters, and god forbid, an eclipse, happened over his domain, then he has some serious explaining to do.

Buddhism also came to heavily involve as well during the Han and that didn't originate from the Zhou on any level.

To the Chinese, Buddhism was a foreign religion. Buddhism may have shown some influence during Han, but the people at the time associated it with Huang-Lao Daoism. It still wasn't popular amongst the masses at the time. It had some significant influence during Northern and Southern Dynasties (endorsement by some rulers), then quickly gained momentum from during the Tang dynasty to the Song dynasty. What I meant was that the Zhou provided the basic framework of Han culture (and whatever happened during the Zhou period), in which the influences of other dynasties are to come later.

[mohistManiac]

Yet, despite the Greeks failure to dominate their culture did spread and influence much of Rome, and despite the disappearance of Rome the continuation of its culture continue to influence the west. Even nowadays, Korean culture/ Japanese culture spread into Asia in such dominating force despite their lack of dominating power shows that strength of a group of elites have nothing to do with the capability to influence and fashion others.

Yes but the Zhou are not the Greeks. The Greeks were outrageously inventive and alot of what they did passed on. Alot of what the Zhou did to spread and influence was in line of granting rights and succession strategies which worked to the purpose of the truly Zhou elite acting out of whichever city state they chose to set up in. The Zhou were about as influential as a modernistic art movement without the benefit of actually cascading the motivation for creating the works. Figuratively, western Zhou is like a person at a young age and chooses to travel without real motivation but when he had gotten emough older traveling becomes a kind of bother while for the Greeks traveling is in itself a purposeful lifetime art.

To contrary, everything is justified through the mandate of heaven.
I can't name something that cannot be associated back to the mandate of heaven. Because through mandate of heaven we derived the justification of social orders, and through social orders come social norms, and through social norms came the culture as we know it.
It is irresponsible to say the mandate of heaven is not the system defining Han.

I think the defining strategy for the Han culture is utilizing what similarly allowed for many other civilizations to do well for themselves basically through employing syncretism. The mandate of heaven although used is generally not in practice in Chinese culture as much as say legalism defines certain things and mohism defines other things and Confucianism, Buddhism and Daoism defines yet more things in Chinese mindsets and culture. Pretty much the only time mandate of heaven is pulled out for use is when another royal family backstabs those that are in power or when a rebellion turns massive and creates a new dynasty. The mandate of heaven is thus subsumed under Daoist philosophy which presupposes that societal conditions much like those in nature continuously flows and diverts courses periodically.

No Buddhism influence during Han. It is considered as Hu prior to Tang. And even after, many consider it as Hu.

Syncretism also played the role in reshaping the originally Indian form of a stupa to a Chinese one by utilizing the multieved/story design and integrating to produce a cone shaped tower to house Buddhist texts and relics. Buddhism was already introduced before the Han dynasty period.

[mohistManiac]

Now, it wasn't just the main Zhou court, but the other states of the Zhou domain, which were just copies of the Zhou state in proxy which quickly spread and enforced Zhou culture within their demesne. The Zhou state, was effective at spreading culture by this method, but were quite ineffective at enforcing their rule completely. (This didn't really happen during the early part of Western Zhou, but the main Zhou polity increasingly could not enforce their will upon their vassals as time went on) There are occasions where the central Zhou power was literally demolished and reduced to a figurehead status. The Eastern Zhou was founded because of the severe dissatisfaction of the rest of the states. As the central power of the Zhou waned, the other states quickly took over the position as enforcing and spreading Zhou culture.

There's was a culture of succession and rites. Fiefs delivered for those having relative connections within the Zhou house. Since there was a time and place for everything it makes for particularly slow and ineffective transmission of other cultural markers which define the heritage that is Han Chinese. Take the Qin they were considered less attached to the Zhou nobles than those states in the center which were closer in range. This must have had effects of differentiating the amount of "vassal" loyalty as well as the amount of shared similarities in the cultures and it shows. In the culture of burial goods which the Zhou culture was clearly evident, states in the center were quick to adopt newer forms while Qin could only rely upon the more well known designs that it had in possession. They also took it upon themselves to replace some bronze items with pottery ming qi substitutes. So while the Zhou culture spread far and wide it didn't exactly spread in historical depth the same way. When you don't have syncretism which states like Qin and Chu did have it is far more difficult for your influences to continue everlasting.

It doesn't have much to do with Confucianism. Even the Han dynasty was not Confucian at first (they practiced Huang-Lao Daoism). Confucianism, was tailored towards the elite classes. Then Mencius came along and popularized it for the masses. Mencius argued that overthrowing rulers (and killing them) was justified though the mandate of heaven because of the issue whether or not the slaying of King Zhou of Shang was under the definition of regicide. Everything is justified through the Mandate of Heaven. If a ruler happened to be decadent and then suddenly all sorts of earthquakes, natural disasters, and god forbid, an eclipse, happened over his domain, then he has some serious explaining to do.

The mandate of heaven is a public promotion for the current rulers image to install their regime legitimately after forcibly taking over the previous one. The Zhou's invented it so they could be Chinese and wouldn't have to slaughter more Shang people. But they took their own image too seriously without considering that their culture wasn't going to be the end all be all motherculture. To my knowledge they didn't even put up much of a fight, just simply relocated and went the way of the dinosaurs. Later dynasties would "use" it retroactively speaking since it was way too convenient for it to be there and not to be used.

To the Chinese, Buddhism was a foreign religion. Buddhism may have shown some influence during Han, but the people at the time associated it with Huang-Lao Daoism. It still wasn't popular amongst the masses at the time. It had some significant influence during Northern and Southern Dynasties (endorsement by some rulers), then quickly gained momentum from during the Tang dynasty to the Song dynasty. What I meant was that the Zhou provided the basic framework of Han culture (and whatever happened during the Zhou period), in which the influences of other dynasties are to come later.

The dynastic Zhou were present during the time of the dynastic Zhou but this needs to be separated from the actual amount of influences presented by the major warring states especially states like Qin and others whose practices were going the way of legalism, meritocracy, and other methods of centralization which were much different than to the way the original Zhou were trying to set themselves up with power. In other words the Zhou culture wasn't the one which organically established for the sorts of things which were finally going to be passed and praised for worth in Han culture. You could say that it's influences were the remnant ones.

Edited by mohistManiac, 05 April 2011 - 11:21 PM.

[mariusj]

Yes but the Zhou are not the Greeks. The Greeks were outrageously inventive and alot of what they did passed on. Alot of what the Zhou did to spread and influence was in line of granting rights and succession strategies which worked to the purpose of the truly Zhou elite acting out of whichever city state they chose to set up in. The Zhou were about as influential as a modernistic art movement without the benefit of actually cascading the motivation for creating the works. Figuratively, western Zhou is like a person at a young age and chooses to travel without real motivation but when he had gotten emough older traveling becomes a kind of bother while for the Greeks traveling is in itself a purposeful lifetime art.

We are pretty off topic, but I wouldn't call the Greeks were more inventive then Zhou, and I wouldn't say aside for dead language and culture the ancient Greeks past much on then Zhou. I don't want to go too much because it will turn to a pissing match but these two civilization each have their own merit.

I think the defining strategy for the Han culture is utilizing what similarly allowed for many other civilizations to do well for themselves basically through employing syncretism. The mandate of heaven although used is generally not in practice in Chinese culture as much as say legalism defines certain things and mohism defines other things and Confucianism, Buddhism and Daoism defines yet more things in Chinese mindsets and culture. Pretty much the only time mandate of heaven is pulled out for use is when another royal family backstabs those that are in power or when a rebellion turns massive and creates a new dynasty. The mandate of heaven is thus subsumed under Daoist philosophy which presupposes that societal conditions much like those in nature continuously flows and diverts courses periodically.

I don't want to go too far off.
So how does one treat his family and friends and why is defined by order which derived through heaven. 天地君親師. All relationships are confined through this and this relationship is justified by the mandate of heaven, the unspeakable will that none can move.
How does one treat his work and his professional relationship? 盡人事，聼天命. All acts while done by man, bow to the will of something else.

The Mandate of Heaven is far more than what you assume it is. It is not something people pull it to justify their own act, rather it is what everyone else said. You don't hear people say I have the Mandate of Heaven, you only hear people say HE has the Mandate of Heaven. It has everything to do with 勢. The Mandate of Heaven have nothing to do with Daoist and their belief. Confucian have their own version of what is Tian.

[sinwung]

Well, guys...I'm not an expertise in Chinese History but when looking at these informations below;
for me,it is clear and convincing that Huang Di was in Chinese History not Mythology.

Phase One:

Huangdi's family lived on Xuanyuan Hill in Xinzheng County, Henan Province, Huang's family name is Gongsun and his first name is Xuanyuan. Because he had a special attachment to the yellow earth, he was called Huangdi by the people ('Huang' in Chinese means yellow symbolizing the yellow earth and 'Di', emperor).

Phase Two:

Many outstanding achievements were made during the reign of Huangdi in architecture, science and culture. Palaces and boats were devised, and arithmetic and medicine also began to appear. Huangdi instructed his people to plant corn, and invented tools for guiding the direction of travel. With the help of Huangdi's wife, people began to feed silkworms and spin thread into silk. In addition, characters and musical instruments were invented by his officials. All in all, many creations came from the Huangdi period.

Phase Three:

Mausoleum of Huangdi in Yan'an, Shaanxi
Huangdi was buried on the Mt. Qiao (Bridge) in Huangling County, Shaanxi Province, and nowadays Huangdi Mausoleum known as 'The First Mausoleum in China' has been visited by numerous people home and abroad especially on the day of Qingming Festival (April 4th or 5th).

Phase Four/The Conclusion Phase:

As Huangdi was the first leader with the great moral and superior wisdom that developed early Chinese civilization, the people regard him as the forefather of the Chinese nation and call themselves the offspring of Huangdi.

[bloodmerchant]

Well, guys...I'm not an expertise in Chinese History but when looking at these informations below;
for me,it is clear and convincing that Huang Di was in Chinese History not Mythology.

Phase One:

Huangdi's family lived on Xuanyuan Hill in Xinzheng County, Henan Province, Huang's family name is Gongsun and his first name is Xuanyuan. Because he had a special attachment to the yellow earth, he was called Huangdi by the people ('Huang' in Chinese means yellow symbolizing the yellow earth and 'Di', emperor).

Phase Two:

Many outstanding achievements were made during the reign of Huangdi in architecture, science and culture. Palaces and boats were devised, and arithmetic and medicine also began to appear. Huangdi instructed his people to plant corn, and invented tools for guiding the direction of travel. With the help of Huangdi's wife, people began to feed silkworms and spin thread into silk. In addition, characters and musical instruments were invented by his officials. All in all, many creations came from the Huangdi period.

Phase Three:

Mausoleum of Huangdi in Yan'an, Shaanxi
Huangdi was buried on the Mt. Qiao (Bridge) in Huangling County, Shaanxi Province, and nowadays Huangdi Mausoleum known as 'The First Mausoleum in China' has been visited by numerous people home and abroad especially on the day of Qingming Festival (April 4th or 5th).

Phase Four/The Conclusion Phase:

As Huangdi was the first leader with the great moral and superior wisdom that developed early Chinese civilization, the people regard him as the forefather of the Chinese nation and call themselves the offspring of Huangdi.

That doesn't prove anything. It's the same thing as Neopagans worshipping Zeus, Woden or whatever deity you worship. They may think they those deities exist, but can they be scientifically proven? Was there any archaeological evidence about a hypothetical human being that supposedly existed before written history? There was no Huangdi, and the logical fallacy of 'You can't prove that Huangdi, Yandi and Chiyou didn't exist' doesn't work here. The only 'evidence' of Huangdi was from the EASTERN ZHOU period. In fact, there was no mention of Huangdi at all during the Shang and Western Zhou periods. He was a MYTH. I have already said that he was an ANTHROPOMORPHISM of a concept, not an actual human being. Huangdi is a figurative representation of the Huaxia and what their life was like. Just because Chinese scholars believe that he existed doesn't mean that Western scholars would agree with this concept of Huangdi. Because for one thing, within the East Asian cultural sphere, there is a tendency to associate mythology with history or legendary figures with historical figures. Do you seriously believe that the founder of the Ji clan was born from a virgin? Just because Huangdi had a name given by Eastern Zhou writers doesn't mean that he existed. Lao Zi probably didn't even exist, it might be a pseudonym or a a name attributed to a group of anonymous authors who wrote the Dao De Jing. Do you believe that some kings are actually descended from a person that didn't exist? Plenty of rulers during Zhou period claim that they are descended from Huangdi. Do you believe their claims to such kinship?

Edited by bloodmerchant, 06 April 2011 - 01:37 PM.

[sinwung]

'"You can't prove that Huangdi, Yandi and Chiyou didn't exist' doesn't work here."

This is exactly what I meant.




"Just because Chinese scholars believe that he existed doesn't mean that Western scholars would agree with this concept of Huangdi"

What else that the Western people dos and don't believe??
Do they not believe in Jesus. Where is the archaeology proof ? He was born from a Virgin , too.

Did Jesus had any influence if any in the Western believe?


When you are talking about burden of proof, here how you will look at it:

Eye-witness evidence and Circumstancial evidence, Preponderant evidence.

If any of these criteria are met then you have proven the case.

And that will be base on clear and convincing evidence ruling.

I'm certainly sure... the Chinese Historian had proven their case...whether you like it or not.

B.

Edited by sinwung, 06 April 2011 - 02:21 PM.

[mariusj]

'"You can't prove that Huangdi, Yandi and Chiyou didn't exist' doesn't work here."

This is exactly what I meant.

What do you exactly meant?
Failure to prove does not mean proof.

"Just because Chinese scholars believe that he existed doesn't mean that Western scholars would agree with this concept of Huangdi"

What else that the Western people dos and don't believe??
Do they not believe in Jesus. Where is the archaeology proof ? He was born from a Virgin , too.

Did Jesus had any influence if any in the Western believe?

Scholars, except for religious ones, don't believe he exists. They might think someone named Jesus exists, but does not mean they think he is what people claim he is. They accepted him as a religious figure, a symbolic figure.

If your goal was to prove HuangDi/Chi You is a religious/symbolic figure, there would be no argument here. On the other hand, your goal is to prove Chi You is 1) Historic and his acts are what was accorded in Shiji, whose source probably came from ShangShu, 2) that he is fore-father of Korean / Hmong people.

When you are talking about burden of proof, here how you will look at it:

Eye-witness evidence and Circumstancial evidence, Preponderant evidence.

We went over this.
There is no eye-witness evidence, and no preponderant evidence. You don't even have circumstantial evidence, which isn't proof.
What you have is circumstantial text. You have NO ARCHEOLOGICAL digging that provides with artifacts of his era that show he exists, you have no contemporary recording of him at his era, you have NOTHING about him that is circumstantial. What you have is third hand source.

And which Chinese historian prove he exists? Give me some names please.