83 replies to this topic

[William O'Chee]

4. Ranking of PROFESSION. From highest to lowest : 1. Minister/Government official (官）- 2. Public servant (吏）normally barred by being 2class citizen or below - 3. Buddhist Monks (僧）- 4. Taoist (道） - 5. doctors (医） - 6. Skill technician (工）eg engineers/architects - 7. Technicial/Craftmans (匠) - 8. Prostitute （娼）- 9. Confucian scholar (儒） - 10. beggar (丐）.


From point 1 and 2, he considers the chinese (whether under the Jin/Jurchen or Song) inferior in its administration. All administrative staff taken over by Mongols
From point 3 classifying the Hans as lowly would mean Genghis or his decendent will never owe up to be Han (note the use of Han instead of chinese)
From point 4, the central scholastic thought based on confucianism is lower than a prostitute, which means that the mongols thought lowly of the han then. (things changed over the period, but we are talking about early Yuan)

PS, taoism as quoted earlier was really not something genghis care. It was buddhism, which was propagated by one of his "state" (子国）was the favour. He had 5 state　（吐蕃,察合台,窝阔台,钦察,伊尔) with a central yuan government (which was mentioned in point 2 above splitting into 11 province.) The tupan state （吐蕃) which propagated buddhism (which is now known as vajrayana/tibetian buddhism) was in favour.

Interesting. This may well be true, but what can you please add a source for this?

[YuenKamSiu]

In regards to the topic, Chinghiz did not consider himself Chinese. If you want to argue that Kublai ruled as a Chinese Emperor or the Yuan Dynasty was a legitimate Chinese dynasty, fine but to argue that Temujin considering himself to be Chinese is just flat out ahistorical.

[FengYuxiang]

Sorry, just cruising through this thread, but the best way to approach this: He is as 'Chinese' as he is 'Persian' - In addition to establishing a Chinese state in the Yuan Dynasty, the Mongol Illkhanate was established after the conquest of Persian territories. Same could be extended towards him being 'Russian'. The argument that the Mongols were Chinese essentially due to 20th Century/Modern day territorial aspirations of the modern Chinese state isn't much of an explaination. In fact, to suggest that people viewed themselves in the context of 19th century style nations and nationalism in the 13th Century is laughable.

Edited by FengYuxiang, 23 April 2011 - 10:07 AM.

[Loong]

Interesting. This may well be true, but what can you please add a source for this?

Hi William,

Sorry not to have put in the relevant quote.

The reference material is 中国人史纲 by 柏杨.

This is a chinese language general introduction in three volumes. It maybe of great interest, as each century, the author does a small comparison with other civilisation (which I gather many of the user in this forum are very interested).

A softcopy can be referred to at the address below. As I am using a hardcopy, if need be, I can scan any diagram/pictures if this is not sufficient.

http://www.oklink.ne...zgrs/index.html

[Mergid]

Sorry, just cruising through this thread, but the best way to approach this: He is as 'Chinese' as he is 'Persian' - In addition to establishing a Chinese state in the Yuan Dynasty, the Mongol Illkhanate was established after the conquest of Persian territories. Same could be extended towards him being 'Russian'. The argument that the Mongols were Chinese essentially due to 20th Century/Modern day territorial aspirations of the modern Chinese state isn't much of an explaination. In fact, to suggest that people viewed themselves in the context of 19th century style nations and nationalism in the 13th Century is laughable.

Thank you. Maybe we can finally put an end to all these nationalist, revisionist claims about the Mongol Khans.

Edited by Mergid, 07 May 2011 - 05:39 AM.

[Jackbarton]

The knights at their tournaments, in their finery, armor and emblems of ancestry, believed they were the foremost warriors in the world, while Mongol warriors thought otherwise. Mongol horses were small, but their riders were lightly clad and they moved with greater speed. These were hardy men who grew up on horses and hunting, making them better warriors than those who grew up in agricultural societies and cities. Their main weapon was the bow and arrow. And the Mongols of the early 1200s were highly disciplined, superbly coordinated and brilliant in tactics.



The Mongols were illiterate, religiously shamanistic and perhaps no more than 700,000 in number. Their language today is described as Altaic, a language unrelated to Chinese, derived from inhabitants in the Altay mountain range in western Mongolia - a language unrelated to Chinese. They were herdsmen on the grassy plains north of the Gobi Desert and south of Siberian forests. Before the year 1200, the Mongols were fragmented, moving about in small bands headed by a chief, or khan, and living in portable felt dwellings, called by the Mongols " ger." The Mongols endured frequent deprivations and sparse areas for grazing their animals. They frequently fought over turf, and during hard times they occasionally raided, interested in goods rather than bloodshed. They did not collect heads or scalps as trophies and did not notch wood to record their kills.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h11mon.htm

[TaishanLOVE]

No offence but I find threads like this rather disgusting it reflects pure inferiority complex.Only the chinese (some or few) who receives PRC education would come up with something so shameful and pathetic.In hong kong, no one would claim such absurd stupidity.This is my fifth time I've read about chinese claiming genghis khan as it's hero, how could any chinese think like this? it's disgusting.

Genghis khan was NOT chinese,Kublai khan was NOT chinese.They can only be chinese if they were born in china,adopted han chinese identity,or fight for the han rule.How can any han chinese just accept an conqueror to be han chinese? they conquered china,killed many chinese and even treated chinese as lower class citizens, and now you're telling me their han chinese?

For example li shimin of tang dynasty,he was not pure chinese but he was mix of han chinese and xianbei.But anyway not only did he have han chinese paternal ancestry but he identified himself as chinese and fought for the han rule.They saw themselves as chinese, on the other hand, chinese were just slaves in yuan and qing dynasty.Although in qing dynasty,even though manchus were very sinicized they have never forgotten that their an different to han chinese.

Saying yuan and qing dynasties are chinese, it's like saying mughals who ruled india were indians. This is an very slave mentality in my opinions.

[mariusj]

Han =/= China

And Mughuls ARE Indians.

Do we have to repeat this again and again.

[TaishanLOVE]

Han =/= China

And Mughuls ARE Indians.

Do we have to repeat this again and again.

LMAO!! you're joking right? I've argued with many indians before on this touchy subject,it's funny how so many of them try to claim mughuls empire as theirs while at the same time getting insulted by uzbeks who ruled over them.It isn't just indians but even pakistani's who claim mughals as theirs just because they ruled all of south asia.The mughals were NEVER indians,they came from central asia of nomadic mongol-turkic-iranian confederation and the top class,leaders,nobles of this empire were of mongol descent.The mughuls is the persian word for mongols,but to be more accurate the mughuls were actually uzbeks turks of mongol descent, descendants of timurids who are from barlas mongol tribes but mixed and intermarried with the turkic and iranian population and heavily turkicized in idendity and adopted persian culture.

The uzbeks and mughals are like an hybrids of mongoloids/caucasoids conquerors.Some look more like caucasoids some more like mongoloids,but in reality is they are like an eurasian type of race.

( Lol mughals are indians? so funny....take a look at the faces of mughals who conquered indian race)








Babur is founder of mughal empire,as you call see he extended from Afghanistan to bangladesh,he is descendant of timurlane from his father side, and mongol descent from her mother side and is vilified by many indians because he conquered indian brutally and tortured many indians during his rule.During his rule,he treated the people with mughul lineage 1st class, the muslims were 2nd class, and the indians hindus were treated at very bottom class.No different to how the yuan and qing dynasties conquerors treated the chinese actually.However some indian or paki nationalists are trying to manipulate history to make themselves feel better,because of being under almost 400 years rule under the mughals.






The paternal ancestor of babur who was timurlane,who famously also conquered parts of north india and chopped the heads of 100,000 hindus in 1 hour.And than his 15,000 captured soldiers captured many as 350,000 -1,000,000 hindu slaves.Each soldiers took 50-100 slaves and no soldier took less than 20, the wealth of dehli was completely looted and immense booty. Timurlane is vilified by indians but is considered an hero and pride to mughals and to babur.Timurlane defeated the mongols,the ottomans, dehli sultanate,arabs,persians.Thank god he died before his campaign to china,or else he could have conquered china,or worse some chinese will again worship another invader as an hero.




Full extend of timurid empire
]

[TaishanLOVE]

I really hope that some of these nationalistic chinese would STOP clinging to histories of foreign invaders with all their fantasy delusions and just be proud of their own han chinese emperors and chinese dynasties.No matter how you manipulate dynasties such as yuan or qing they'll never be chinese achievements.I know some chinese are also claiming mongol empire simply because mongolians are now part of ethnic group in china, which is such an pathetic logic.I know because mongol empire conquered all way to east europe and this serves the chinese a lot pride,but even if mongols call themselves chinese now,it still will never be an chinese achievements.


Be proud of the han dynasty who conquered from north vietnam to north korea.Be proud of the tang dynasty who conquered east turkistan,be proud of the ming dynasty. These dynasties were far more rich and and advance than any other foreign dynasties that ruled china.

Lol if chinese can claim genghis khan and mongol empire, than these half chinese/half white people can also claim tamerlane,babur and their timurids and mughal empires.

Edited by TaishanLOVE, 20 May 2011 - 02:04 AM.

[mariusj]

I don't want to be rude, but you need to stop assuming.

First of all, if you want to use personal experience to justify anything [e.g, I spoken to many Indians] you need to have some sort of quantitative method, for example, I spoke to 51% of all Indians and they all agree with me that Mughals are not Indians. Failing to do that, bringing any of these information just makes you look silly. You are trying, at the age of the internet, convincing people through personal experience.

Second, you need to stop be narrow minded. Just because everything you experience is restrained by ethnicity and ethnic state does not mean that every nation, empire, kingdom, etc, are of a single ethnicity. Thus, because not every nation is of one single ethnicity, you entire argument - that they look different from other people thus they are not the same nation, is borderline ignorant and racist. [And I am been nice.]

Third, you assume people here are claiming anything. Go back to the first thread. And read what the premises are. Surely you are disgusted by your own foolishness for not reading the thread and then puke over your own assumption?

Edited by mariusj, 20 May 2011 - 02:27 AM.

[TaishanLOVE]

I don't want to be rude, but you need to stop assuming.

First of all, if you want to use personal experience to justify anything [e.g, I spoken to many Indians] you need to have some sort of quantitative method, for example, I spoke to 51% of all Indians and they all agree with me that Mughals are not Indians. Failing to do that, bringing any of these information just makes you look silly. You are trying, at the age of the internet, convincing people through personal experience.

Second, you need to stop be narrow minded. Just because everything you experience is restrained by ethnicity and ethnic state does not mean that every nation, empire, kingdom, etc, are of a single ethnicity. Thus, because not every nation is of one single ethnicity, you entire argument - that they look different from other people thus they are not the same nation, is borderline ignorant and racist. [And I am been nice.]

Third, you assume people here are claiming anything. Go back to the first thread. And read what the premises are. Surely you are disgusted by your own foolishness for not reading the thread and then puke over your own assumption?

Firstable,I did say many indians claimed mughals empire as theirs,but that doesn't mean I said every indian or even the majority of indians are claiming mughals are indians.However there are many indians and pakis out there that ARE claiming mughal history as theirs, simply because the mughal emperors would later be assimilated into indian culture,and using that logic they consider them as indian emperors.

Second,I'm not being narrow minded,I'm using plain logic and common-sense.If the japanese emperor hirohito have successfully conquered all of china completely and ruled for it 100 years would it make sense to worship him as chinese emperor after killing so many chinese people? the same goes with yuan and qing both have subjugated and killed so many chinese, and made the chinese ethnicity at the bottom class of their dynasties while they made their own ethnicities on top,which is completely different from all the other chinese dynasties where han rule dominated and is on top class.If the emperors of dynasties aren't han chinese ethnicity than it isn't an chinese achievement, especially if the conquerors or invaders came from outside of china.Same goes for indians, the mughals conquered and subjugated the indians under mughals rule at the beginning.

Third,I'm not assuming I know exactly what the thread starter is trying to do.This isn't the first time I saw an chinese making an thread about if genghis khan was chinese.What would an mongol or any non-chinese think of this? There are many desperate chinese (let met emphasize) who are manipulating history to suit themselves,and by many I don't mean majority either.These chinese who claim genghis khan or kublai khan as chinese is only making all chinese people look bad.

Edited by TaishanLOVE, 20 May 2011 - 03:33 AM.

[TaishanLOVE]

Listen to this logic.So just because every nation, empire, kingdom are NOT of a single ethnicity means you can just claim their achievements as chinese? If there was an tibetan king who ruled all of china, would that be chinese achievements or tibetan achievements?

Edited by TaishanLOVE, 20 May 2011 - 03:24 AM.

[bloodmerchant]

Listen to this logic.So just because every nation, empire, kingdom are NOT of a single ethnicity means you can just claim their achievements as chinese? If there was an tibetan king who ruled all of china, would that be chinese achievements or tibetan achievements?

What does this have to do with anything? Nations don't have to be bound by ethnicity. Look at Switzerland, for example. Or the many nations of Africa that are home to diverse ethnic groups. Another example are Latin American countries with their own indigenous ethnic minorities.

Edited by bloodmerchant, 20 May 2011 - 03:42 AM.

[TaishanLOVE]

What does this have to do with anything? Nations don't have to be bound by ethnicity. Look at Switzerland, for example. Or the many nations of Africa that are home to diverse ethnic groups.

So than what does that mean? even in many nations of africa, there are the superior ethnic group and the inferior ethnic groups, and the inferior ethnic groups of africa are still being oppressed and enslaved in this modern time and age by the superior ethnic.Are you trying to say an non-chinese ethncity should be considered the same as chinese achievements? You do realize that mongols or manchus were never originally part of chinese ethnicity? even if they were it still isn't chinese.Let's say the manchus conquerors happened to be an group of white people, would it make sense to claim white emperor as chinese emperor? it be extremely shameful.

Edited by TaishanLOVE, 20 May 2011 - 03:49 AM.