83 replies to this topic

[MarcoPolo5]

i know he is technically a mongol, but i been reading other threads on chinese history, and some people say khan claimed that he was chinese..

is there any evidence of him claiming he was chinese....

[mariusj]

i know he is technically a mongol, but i been reading other threads on chinese history, and some people say khan claimed that he was chinese..

is there any evidence of him claiming he was chinese....

No.
He unified the steppe and created Mongol, I doubt he wants to be anything else.

On the other hand, who said Genghis Khan claim he was Chinese.

[Bakkheia]

I doubt Genghis Khan has very high opinion of Chinese or other settled cultures. So no, it would ridiculous for him to consider himself Chinese.

[Nikha]

What 'Chinese' was at the time? Why we use our 21st perspective to a man that existed in 1200s? Do you all discussing on behalf of Chinghis Khan?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Refer to this thread:

http://www.chinahist...a-chinese-ruler

We have a discussion before. IMO, he does not 'claim' himself to be a Chinese.

[Nikha]

Thank you sir (General_Zhaoyun). But I am not interested in Chingghis Khan. I only know that he was posthomusly a 'founder' 'the first emperor' of Yuan dynasty in China. It was a 'fomal' and 'legal' tittle. Please make this forum more 'scientific' rather than discussing with I 'doubt', I 'think, I 'feel' to a person that lived more than 500 years ago. I even doubt about the emperor of the Song dynasty!, in this modern time the emperor of Song dynasty will still consider him Chinese of People Republic of China or ROC?. George Washington had 300 slaves during his life time, will he accept Black African to be a US president in 2009?
What to argue? What a waste of time!!

[Nikha]

PS: And Chingghis Khan had high opinion about Taoism, I have read his letter of invitaion to Qiu Changcun the Tao master here. Taoism is a Chinese culture.

[William O'Chee]

Thank you sir (General_Zhaoyun). But I am not interested in Chingghis Khan. I only know that he was posthomusly a 'founder' 'the first emperor' of Yuan dynasty in China. It was a 'fomal' and 'legal' tittle. Please make this forum more 'scientific' rather than discussing with I 'doubt', I 'think, I 'feel' to a person that lived more than 500 years ago. I even doubt about the emperor of the Song dynasty!, in this modern time the emperor of Song dynasty will still consider him Chinese of People Republic of China or ROC?. George Washington had 300 slaves during his life time, will he accept Black African to be a US president in 2009?
What to argue? What a waste of time!!

Nikha, I think your comment was a little intemperate. The comments posted have been pretty clear.

If you want "scientific" discussion consider these points.

In the Secret History of the Mongols, Genghis Khan showed himself to be concerned not only to unite the steppe people but to give them a distinctly Mongol identity. He did this by laying down laws which served to reinforce what he would have considered distinctively Mongol characteristics, such as the way disputes were to be resolved, the obligation people had to the Great Khan, and so forth.

By contrast, his behaviour towards conquered peoples shows a general disregard for them. That is why he frequently put large portions of their populations to death if they resisted him, and others could only escape through their total subordination.

In saying this we are not speculating on whether they saw themselves as Mongol, or whether our perception of Mongol identity is the same as ours. The text actually states who they thought they were, and defines the characteristics they saw as distinctively theirs.

Edited by William O'Chee, 23 March 2011 - 10:47 AM.

[YuenKamSiu]

PS: And Chingghis Khan had high opinion about Taoism, I have read his letter of invitaion to Qiu Changcun the Tao master here. Taoism is a Chinese culture.

Right and he had a high opinion of Buddhism, does that make Genghis Khan Indian? Sorry that's a rather weak argument.

[CasualHistorian]

Hey all; I'm new but am going to try to contribute. Feel free to correct me!

I agree with William's post. Genghis' code of laws, called the "Yassa," I believe, served to promote a national identity that reflected the Genghis Khan - that of being Mongolian. One specific law restricted any Mongol from being made a slave, which shows a clear preference for his own culture. I thought I remembered one part that required Chinese to wear specifically Mongolian attire and/or hairstyles, but I cannot currently locate that source. Another law in the Yassa that I particularly enjoy is that "children are forbidden to wash clothes during thunder." Genghis had a heart!

I know it's a bit off topic, but I'll toss this out there just for more fun debate. I think the original argument could better be made about his grandson, Kublai. Though still clearly Mongolian, he moved the empire's capital to modern day Beijing, adopted the Chinese system of administration, and developed Chinese infrastructure. He realized that China was an integral asset to the overall empire and implemented Mongolian reforms in order to better benefit from China.

[Nikha]

Thank you sirs, I never consider Genghis Khan other than Mongol, was he a 'Chinese'? I am not sure, I will not disscus any more to this topic, I hope this my last post. I wrote clearly that I am rather not interested in discussing about the matter time and again. His high opinion about Taoism so he was Chinese? Did I conclude about that? I wrote he had high opinion about Taoism, wich is a Chinese tought.( I was answering to a doubt that Chinghis has ' a high' opinion about Chinese or other settled cultures)
I always consider that Yuan is a LEGITIMATE Chinese dynasty. My point: Kubilai Khan (a LEGITIMATE ruler) gave the tittle to Chinggis Khan (Kubilai's Grandfather; They were Royal family) Taizu. It was like giving him a 'passport' or an 'ID' card. You maybe Ugandan, but you hold US passport, so lawfully people can consider you American ( even you hate America or American).
We must keep in mind that history is not neutral. People wrote history on purpose.
To be simple: The US dollar bills and toilet papers are papers. But people only accept dollar bills when we make transactions. Why? because they are backed, supported by Federal Reserves, by US Government.
Since the person had died 500 years ago, we actually discussing about 'claim' not the person.
Like any monetary values, any claim about whoever Chinggis Khan can depreciate or apreciate.

Edited by Nikha, 23 March 2011 - 11:14 PM.

[YuenKamSiu]

You can make a good argument for Kublai being "Chinese" seeing as he was the founder and first emperor of the Yuan Dynasty. But Chinghiz? Come on now that's seriously stretching. Temujin was a man of the steppe and he never really cared for sedentary peoples.

Think of it like this, I'm an American. I was born and raised in the US but I'm an American of Chinese descent.

My great grandfather on the other hand was never an American whatsoever. He was born in China and lived his whole life there. You can't possibly argue him being an American in any way shape or form seeing as how he never stepped on American soil.

Just like President Obama's ancestors were never American, most of them lived and died in Kenya.

The same can go the ancestors of modern day German, Irish, Italian Americans.

[Nikha]

YuenKamSiu,consider this: Modern people usually stress HOW FAR Mongol is/was from China (If you have never been to Mongolia and China look at the map compared them with how far China to US, Irish to US, Kenya to US) . How Mongol is/ was always and will ever be BITTER ENEMY of China or Chinese people. When you said that your great grandfather never set foot in America, the case was very different from Cinghis Khan. The Tao master Qiu Changcun refused the Song and Jin invitation, but accepted and went to meet Cinghis Khan and travelled 3 years in his 72 years of age.Can we still consider Cinghis a ruthless, savage beast to the so called 'Chinese' people? Why an old Shantung man like Qiu Changcun was very kind to Chingis if he considered Cinghis 'not us' but only savage brutal beast? (Please note Song dynasty still in existence for 50 more years). You can read even Cinghis Khan's ajutant at the time was Liu Chung Lu, a Chinese name or we can simply say a Chinese.

Edited by Nikha, 24 March 2011 - 01:45 AM.

[YuenKamSiu]

YuenKamSiu,consider this: Modern people usually stress HOW FAR Mongol is/was from China (If you have never been to Mongolia and China look at the map compared them with how far China to US, Irish to US, Kenya to US) . How Mongol is/ was always and will ever be BITTER ENEMY of China or Chinese people. When you said that your great grandfather never set foot in America, the case was very different from Cinghis Khan. The Tao master Qiu Changcun refused the Song and Jin invitation, but accepted and went to meet Cinghis Khan and travelled 3 years in his 72 years of age.Can we still consider Cinghis a ruthless, savage beast to the so called 'Chinese' people? Why an old Shantung man like Qiu Changcun was very kind to Chingis if he considered Cinghis 'not us' but only savage brutal beast? (Please note Song dynasty still in existence for 50 more years). You can read even Cinghis Khan's ajutant at the time was Liu Chung Lu, a Chinese name or we can simply say a Chinese.

Right but how is this relevant to the discussion? Just because Chinghis was friendly to Qiu doesn't make Chinghis Chinese.

Accepting Taoist ideas doesn't make one Chinese. Going by that logic, a good number of Chinese are actually Indian then due the mass popularity of Buddhism.

When has he ever openly or even indirectly refer to himself as a citizen of the Chinese states at the time?

With Kublai, you can point out that he was the ruler of the Yuan Dynasty but Chinghiz? He lived and died on the steppe.

Edited by YuenKamSiu, 24 March 2011 - 02:51 AM.

[Nikha]

LOL Oh Please. I myself have written that I am not sure whether Cinghis Khan a Chinese or not, I am not discussing he was a Chinese or not. I read here that Mongolian, Kazakshtan, Kyrgistan and Chinese claiming Cinghis. We are not discussing about who he really was, but more about claiming. Not much documents left about him. The Yuan dynasty Khubilai, the emperor gave him the tittle Taizu it was a legal status (at the time if Kubilai wanted to sleep with your beautiful wife he just ordered to kill you, but it was an emperor decree). I wrote about Taoism, to show that he was not that alien to Chinese culture as your Chinese great grandfather to American culture. Please read others post and my post clearly. I am not forcing the opinion that Cinghis Khan was a Chinese, American, Gabon or any other country citizen. Do you understand?