32 replies to this topic

[Belken]

I always watch Wuxia shows and it seems as if this yellow handled sword was a weapon which almost everyone carry in jiang hu. But in the real history of China is it that only Tai-chi users on Wudang mountain use this weapon?

http://www.karatedep...m/wp-sw-16.html

In films they always show that Wahshan school uses this weapon as well.But from what I researched,the real Wah mountain kung fu were actually only made up of five animal bare handed fighting.Also I learnt that in the Ching era,the jiang hu groups that fought secretly against the Ching and the various rival triads(who sometime held fight competitions to settle scores or prove whose skills are better) all only fought bare handed.Some of the really great fighters had internal Hard skills to back up their bare hand fighting and once in a while gang fights would involve machete and spears.

My question is;was the lion head only used by Wudang fighters?Was it really a common weapon?And did government armies use them in wars since they are a bit too tiny in the battlefield?

[TMPikachu]

It looks like a plain ol' jian to me

from what I know, jian were phased out of the military in favor of sabers around the Yuan (I think). Jian continued in civilian use. (I think)
I think Tang were big on using Jian, and may have begun using sabers.
Han also used one-edged straight swords.

[Yang Zongbao]

That's just a Jian. Nothing special about it...oh yeah, I wouldn't buy that either. It looks like a cheap martial arts store style thing.
If you want to see real nice jian, go to

www.chinesearms.com
or
www.zhengwutang.com

Most of your stuff about this Jiang Hu and Wudang only... sounds like Martial Arts lore. Certainly, Wudang Pai would not be the only users of Jian around. You really should talk with Lang Tao Yin, or even better, Thomas Chen, to clear some of this up.

This needs to be moved to Art of War, too.

[Wujiang]

But from what I researched,the real Wah mountain kung fu were actually only made up of five animal bare handed fighting.

I would actually like to know where your source is for that statement. For both historical references and martial arts, Wahshanpai never existed. It was a complete fabrication.

[Belken]

I would actually like to know where your source is for that statement. For both historical references and martial arts, Wahshanpai never existed. It was a complete fabrication.

I do not have any website links I can direct you too. All I have is an article I photocopied from a magazine. But if they were bold enough to give the exact adress and very detailed steps to get to the mountain to pay them a visit,then the school must exist. In the current day at least.

Then again, in the past Wahshanpai might not have really existed and the legend that they speak of that Wu Song from water margin being a student must be a fabrication. But who am I to accuse them of being fakes? So I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Yang Zongbao]

Of course, the fact they gave detailed steps doesn't mean that their form is correct.

You can give detailed steps to the Shaolin Temple. Doesn't mean their form is correct. (Quite often, it isn't.)

It's common to associate your own boxing style with a famous character, in this case, Wu Song.

Plus, the five animal styles seem more like something from movies...I wonder their real combat effectiveness.

[Belken]

Most of your stuff about this Jiang Hu and Wudang only... sounds like Martial Arts lore.

Actually,what I meant was there were two types of Jiang Hu.One is the real life one during the Ching which comprised of rebel groups,various martial arts groups founded by students of monks from Shaolin,Triads and competitions held among each other to prove who was better. Examples like Luk Ah Choy,Hoong Hei Kun,the Hung Mun or the heaven and earth society.

The other Jiang Hu I meant was the fictional one made for TV in which everyone carries a jian. So my question was that if real life China was really like the TV version in which everybody carries jian. I believe no, since the real life Jiang Hu was more like the one that people described during the Ching. Also because the books I read only mention that Tai-chi practioners use jian. I haven't read about Wing Chun practitioners or Hung Gar students using jian that much.

[Belken]

Of course, the fact they gave detailed steps doesn't mean that their form is correct.

Ya.That's why I keep my fingers crossed for further developments to see if their Wahshan school is real or a modern day fabrication. Never mind. Proving Wahshan exists or not isn't really a major evidence to prove if everybody use jian or not.

[BlueDragonMagik]

A Lion head sword!? ... Were there any lions in China?

[Yang Zongbao]

Just think. The Qing are not Ethnic Chinese, they would worry if everyone carried a Jian. They would not like that.
Secondly, it costs plenty to get a Jian made. It's something that most farmers would not want to spend their money on, especially if they weren't encouraged to use them.

There were lions in China, I think. But it's just a nice sounding name for a very ordinary jian.

[Belken]

Just think. The Qing are not Ethnic Chinese, they would worry if everyone carried a Jian.

Wing Chun practitioners might have been forbidden to use jian or any weapons in general but that didn't stop them from carrying the double butterfly swords. The Hung Gar students didn't stop practising in secret using tridents(?) or spears.

That all goes to show that jian might not have been everyone's favourite weapon even as a secret weapon. The only recorded users of jian may have been Taichi users during the Ching dynasty.

But what about Sung or Ming dynasty?Did martial artists everywhere carry jian commonly?

There were lions in China, I think. But it's just a nice sounding name for a very ordinary jian.

Some close up shots of some of some jian(not all) actually show a golden head of a lion just above the handle.

[Thomas Chen]

Wing Chun practitioners might have been forbidden to use jian or any weapons in general but that didn't stop them from carrying the double butterfly swords. The Hung Gar students didn't stop practising in secret using tridents(?) or spears.

That all goes to show that jian might not have been everyone's favourite weapon even as a secret weapon. The only recorded users of jian may have been Taichi users during the Ching dynasty.

But what about Sung or Ming dynasty?Did martial artists everywhere carry jian commonly?
Some close up shots of some of some jian(not all) actually show a golden head of a lion just above the handle.

http://chineseswords...com/custom.html

[Yang Zongbao]

The Lion Guard doesn't keep it from being a Jian. It is a Jian, basically, I don't think there's any need to refer to it as a whole different weapon.

I myself do not know how widespread the nonmilitary practice was, but I do know that it was discouraged. But I have no idea how much it was done in secret.
But I don't think that most Wing Chun students would just happen to keep butterfly knives on them.
But you see, butterfly knives wouldn't be in use ONLY by Wing Chun practicioners, either. You don't have to learn Wing Chun to use Butterfly knives, you don't have to learn Wu Dang to learn Jian.

So you wouldn't be able to see lots of weapons just anywhere, methinks. Although, no doubt, anti government groups would NEED weapons. They probably wouldn't just randomly carry them around.

[Wujiang]

But you see, butterfly knives wouldn't be in use ONLY by Wing Chun practicioners, either. You don't have to learn Wing Chun to use Butterfly knives, you don't have to learn Wu Dang to learn Jian.

Agreed. A great number of southern styles uses that weapon. Hung Gar, Choi Lay Fut, Longying, to name but a few. Wing Chun isn't the only ones who uses them.

My guess is southerns simply wasn't capable of using the straight sword correctly. The Jian is an EXTREMELY complicated weapon to use. The general low level of education in the south means that they are unlikely to have been able to understand the straight sword any better than they understood the dao. Meaning hacking and cutting techniques. Since Jian isn't good for that kind of thing, they would have simply dismissed as being a bad weapon.

When one analyze sword forms such as the 崑崙劍 from Hung Gar, you will find evidence of this. This form really isn't using the straight sword the way it was suppose to.

[Yang Zongbao]

I would not say that southerners were unable to use Jian correctly.

The belief, that Southerners all used or primarily used Sabers, or that northerners primarily used jian are misconceptions.
Your level of education really means little, as long as you have a good master to learn from.
I do not agree that low levels of education means they'd understand hacking and cutting techniques better. To each his own poison, really. Your preference doesn't care whether you are Northern or Southern.

It's not as if the Jian was only designed to pierce, though modern Wushu would have it appear that way. You CAN use Jian for cutting and slicing, contrary to popular belief. It's actually fairly decent at it. So really, it's not the wrong way to use a jian if you hack and slice only.
You're just not taking advantage of the fact that it is BETTER at piercing than the Dao. But to only stab would be to ignore the Jian's innate capability to deal out slicing wounds.