10 replies to this topic

[WildInkHeart]

One of my friends in Mainland China has told me that he is busy preparing the celebration of the 100th Anniversary of "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution, and he asked me what the best way is to make the celebration special. I only have some basic knowledge of "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution, which I have learnt when I was young in China mainland, and as far as I was told, "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution was the end of Qing dynasty and a beginning of democracy, and a big step forward for all the Chinese.

However, I see it as a starting point of civil war in China and Warlord Era.

Could anyone tell me why people should celebrate "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution? Many thanks.

[Kenshinng]

it was considered a pivotal point in China's history as the failing Qing Dynasty was finally overthrown. A lot of the citizens were suffering under the rule of the Manchu Dynasty and a Republic was a very welcome idea to a lot of them. It gave them hope, so to speak.

[WildInkHeart]

Thanks mate

[Kenshinng]

Thanks mate

You're very welcome! Do have a good day!

[General_Zhaoyun]

One of my friends in Mainland China has told me that he is busy preparing the celebration of the 100th Anniversary of "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution, and he asked me what the best way is to make the celebration special. I only have some basic knowledge of "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution, which I have learnt when I was young in China mainland, and as far as I was told, "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution was the end of Qing dynasty and a beginning of democracy, and a big step forward for all the Chinese.

Could anyone tell me why people should celebrate "Xinhai or Hsinhai" Revolution? Many thanks.

Refer to http://en.wikipedia....olution_of_1911

The Xinhai Revolution has much historical meaning in Chinese history as it ended 2000 years of Imperialism in China. China then entered into a Republican Era.

There are two opinions from KMT and CCP towards Xinhai Revolution.

The KMT recognized Sun Yat-sen as the Father of the Nation and as the leader who led the Xinhai Revolution to success. They had a high opinion of the Xinhai Revolution, viewing the Xinhai Revolution as the starting point of the modern history of China, and as the key element that enabled China to develop into a democratic and modern nation.

On the other hand, the Communist Party thought that the Xinhai Revolution merely overthrew the totalitarian rule of the Qing Dynasty. It did not oppose imperialism or feudalism because the bourgeois class was thought to be compromising and feeble, and therefore it did not create a truly republican system. Land had not been redistributed equally, and a transformation of society had not been achieved. The revolution ended up yielding to the Western powers, and it compromised with Yuan Shikai, who represented the old regime.

After the 1950s, both mainland China and Taiwan have high positive views of Xinhai Revolution.

However, I see it as a starting point of civil war in China and Warlord Era.

There are some differences in viewpoints of the "Chaos" such as warlordism and civil war during Republican era. CCP sees itself as the "victor" ending the chaotic situation during Republican era, and therefore you have the Chinese (Communist) revolution of 1949, leading to the establishment of People's Republic of China.

KMT sees the "Chaos" as a painful struggle of building the Chinese Republic nation, a fight to unify the nation and foreign aggression. The credit of ending warlordism predominantly goes to KMT as the KMT led the Northern Expedition to unify China in 1932. After unifying China in 1932, the Republican Chinese Army (KMT troops) was established. However, the CCP established an independent Soviet Chinese Republic, and faced with Anti-Japanese war, the KMT's viewpoint was to extinguished CCP first in order to "unify China first and then fight against the Japanese". However, the 1936 Xi'an incidence, in which Chiang Kai Shek was captured, and forced to co-operate with Chinese communist, led both KMT and CCP to fight together against the Japanese. Most of the credit for Anti-Japanese war should go to Republican Chinese Army (KMT troops) in this part of history.

In any case, over in mainland China, the Chinese are celebrating the "100 years Anniversary of Xinhai Revolution. While over in Taiwan, the Taiwanese are celebrating the "100 Years Anniversary of Founding of Republic of China".

Note that Sun Yat Sen's 3 Principles of People, namely Minzu 民族 (Civic-nationalism), Minquan 民權 (Democracy and Human Rights) and Minsheng 民生 (Socialism and People's Livelihood), and his Republican and Democratic Ideology are only realized in Taiwan today.

[General_Zhaoyun]

There is another movie video here..about Xinhai revolution

[Mergen]

The KMT recognized Sun Yat-sen as the Father of the Nation and as the leader who led the Xinhai Revolution to success.

The Xinhai Revolution had nothing to do with Sun Yat-sen who was overseas when it happened. It was a rebellion by Qing soldiers stationed in Wuchang. Sun Yat-sen neither planned, financed or participated in it. So I wonder why he takes credit for the revolution's successes. In fact, all of Sun Yat-sen's attempts at revolution failed and he had to flee every time. Ironically, without his involvement, the Xinhai Revolution achieved what Sun Yat-sen tried to do but failed every time. Because he was the most famous revolutionary at that time and had an established party backing, he managed to bask in the Wuchang glory and returned to stake a political role in the new republic. The reality is, without real military strength, Sun Yat-sen could not contend with ex-Qing military strongmen. That was why Yuan Shikai managed to outmaneuver him for the presidency. When Yuan later attacked him, Sun Yat-sen had to flee again. So if we take an objective analysis based on facts, Sun Yat-sen was a failed revolutionary throughout his life. He did not achieve his dream of re-unifying China under his republican vision. It was not until with Soviet help to establish a professional military corp did the KMT subsequently manage to re-unify China with brute force. But Sun Yat-sen did not live to see that. Instead, his successor Chiang Kai-Shek achieved unification but perverted Sun's republican vision into his own personal dictatorship. So technically speaking, even Sun Yat-sen's republican vison was never implemented in the way he wanted because Chiang Kai-Shek changed things to consolidate personal power. IMHO, Sun Yat-sen's legacy in relation to the Xinhai Revolution has been grossly exaggerated and blown out of proportions after his death.

[Yizheng]

Well, I know Taiwan has been celebrating the Xinhai revolution all year, but I was just in Beijing and i saw nothing anywhere that mentioned this anniversary. Everywhere was just all big celebrations of the communist party's 90th anniversary, and it seemed everyone has forgotten that it is 100 years since Xinhai revolution. Maybe they will start some kind of celebration later in the year, closer to the actual anniversary dates?

It's kind of hard to call it a 'celebration', because while people might have welcomed the fall of the Qing, it did not make life any easier, and it ushered in a tough period for China, that is for sure, fragmented, corrupt, weakened by all the infighting and power struggles. As for Sun Yatsen not being there when it happened, that seems a common fate for revolutionaries. After all, they get forced to flee or exiled by the governments they oppose, then those governments suddenly topple, usually by some unexpected chain of events, rather than a planned revolution (all Sun yatsen's planned attempts failed). And the revolutionary leaders get caught by surprise abroad and rush home.

It was the same in Russia in 1917. Lenin was in Switzerland, hungry people toppled the tsar, a provisional government got set up, and then Lenin came back, only he was cunning and ruthless and so had more success had grabbing power. Sun yatsen had a tough match in Yuan Shikai, with his big ambitions, even trying his hand at being emperor. There was no Yuan Shikai for Lenin in 1917 Russia.

But even so, no matter what the difficulties, the date is still significant in China's history, and its not just the transition from one dynasty to a new one, but from one dynasty to an attempt to build a system based on a different foundation - the republic. Anyway, I didn't see any evidence of the date being remembered in Beijing, not at a kind of official state level, anyway.

[ahxiang]

Well, I know Taiwan has been celebrating the Xinhai revolution all year, but I was just in Beijing and i saw nothing anywhere that mentioned this anniversary. Everywhere was just all big celebrations of the communist party's 90th anniversary, and it seemed everyone has forgotten that it is 100 years since Xinhai revolution. Maybe they will start some kind of celebration later in the year, closer to the actual anniversary dates?

It's kind of hard to call it a 'celebration', because while people might have welcomed the fall of the Qing, it did not make life any easier, and it ushered in a tough period for China, that is for sure, fragmented, corrupt, weakened by all the infighting and power struggles. As for Sun Yatsen not being there when it happened, that seems a common fate for revolutionaries. After all, they get forced to flee or exiled by the governments they oppose, then those governments suddenly topple, usually by some unexpected chain of events, rather than a planned revolution (all Sun yatsen's planned attempts failed). And the revolutionary leaders get caught by surprise abroad and rush home.

It was the same in Russia in 1917. Lenin was in Switzerland, hungry people toppled the tsar, a provisional government got set up, and then Lenin came back, only he was cunning and ruthless and so had more success had grabbing power. Sun yatsen had a tough match in Yuan Shikai, with his big ambitions, even trying his hand at being emperor. There was no Yuan Shikai for Lenin in 1917 Russia.

But even so, no matter what the difficulties, the date is still significant in China's history, and its not just the transition from one dynasty to a new one, but from one dynasty to an attempt to build a system based on a different foundation - the republic. Anyway, I didn't see any evidence of the date being remembered in Beijing, not at a kind of official state level, anyway.

Yizheng,

You want to take a look at discussions at
http://www.chinahist...ost__p__4791608

Sun Yat-sen was what we called 'xian zhi' and 'xian jue' and 'xian xing', the first to contrive, to first to wake up, and the first to take action. While the majority of Chinese at the time were working on reform, or constitutional government, and observed the Manchu "new administration" policies in going overseas for studies, Sun Yat-sen continued his robinhood rebellion. And it was the Japanese who connected Sun Yat-sen and the Cantonese Gang with the Hunan-Hubei Gang and the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang. The Revolutionary Alliance combined efforts in orchestrating rebellions, and this time, Sun was able to move beyond the secret societies to link up with those overseas students who were to infiltrate into the Manchu New Army to stage mutinies.

There was certainly a dispute among them, at the time Sun Yat-sen was expelled from Japan but took with him some money that the Japanese gave him. However, Sun Yat-sen and the Hunan-Hubei Gang still operated together, and leaders from the Hunan-Hubei Gang participated in the Canton uprisings. The discord came from one of the two factions among the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang, i.e., those under Li XIehe, Tao Chengzhang, and Cai Yuanpei, and Gong. The Chen Qimei/Chiang Kai-shek faction of the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang remained loyal with Sun. Even with the former sub-gang of the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang, it was merely some leaders who were against Sun, while Cai Yuanpei had no personal grudgings against SUn, and they still stayed together with the assassination death of Tao Chengzhang, for example. Only Zhang Taiyan remained defiant.

I checked the Wuchang uprising records, and I am 100% certain there existed a grand master-plan to stage uprisings across China under the same banner, including the aborted Luanzhou Uprising in the north. Sun was overseas seeking funds for the revolution, and could not be said to have no role in the revolution. Even the "Railway Protection" movement, that triggered the Wuchang Manchu Army relocation, was orchestrated by the members of the Sichuan chapter of the Revolutionary Alliance.

By the way, I found some interesting stuff written by some Russian.
http://moscowthrough...ng-in-bath.html

Very nice name: moscow through brown eyes. I found Russians very good writers, have to say it again. Like Ledovsky, like Cuikov, like Vladimirov, like Dalin, et al. You are a good writer, too.

Edited by ahxiang, 04 August 2011 - 08:09 PM.

[ahxiang]

Yizheng,

You want to take a look at discussions at
http://www.chinahist...ost__p__4791608

Sun Yat-sen was what we called 'xian zhi' and 'xian jue' and 'xian xing', the first to contrive, to first to wake up, and the first to take action. While the majority of Chinese at the time were working on reform, or constitutional government, and observed the Manchu "new administration" policies in going overseas for studies, Sun Yat-sen continued his robinhood rebellion. And it was the Japanese who connected Sun Yat-sen and the Cantonese Gang with the Hunan-Hubei Gang and the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang. The Revolutionary Alliance combined efforts in orchestrating rebellions, and this time, Sun was able to move beyond the secret societies to link up with those overseas students who were to infiltrate into the Manchu New Army to stage mutinies.

There was certainly a dispute among them, at the time Sun Yat-sen was expelled from Japan but took with him some money that the Japanese gave him. However, Sun Yat-sen and the Hunan-Hubei Gang still operated together, and leaders from the Hunan-Hubei Gang participated in the Canton uprisings. The discord came from one of the two factions among the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang, i.e., those under Li XIehe, Tao Chengzhang, and Cai Yuanpei, and Gong. The Chen Qimei/Chiang Kai-shek faction of the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang remained loyal with Sun. Even with the former sub-gang of the Jiangsu-Zhejiang Gang, it was merely some leaders who were against Sun, while Cai Yuanpei had no personal grudgings against SUn, and they still stayed together with the assassination death of Tao Chengzhang, for example. Only Zhang Taiyan remained defiant.

I checked the Wuchang uprising records, and I am 100% certain there existed a grand master-plan to stage uprisings across China under the same banner, including the aborted Luanzhou Uprising in the north. Sun was overseas seeking funds for the revolution, and could not be said to have no role in the revolution. Even the "Railway Protection" movement, that triggered the Wuchang Manchu Army relocation, was orchestrated by the members of the Sichuan chapter of the Revolutionary Alliance.

By the way, I found some interesting stuff written by some Russian.
http://moscowthrough...ng-in-bath.html

Very nice name: moscow through brown eyes. I found Russians very good writers, have to say it again. Like Ledovsky, like Cuikov, like Vladimirov, like Dalin, et al. You are a good writer, too.

One other thing I like to share with our Russian friend is that the 1911 Chinese Revolution, judging by the elements who participated in the mutinies, was a result of the Russo-Japanese rivalry from 1895 onward. First it was the Russians, plus French and German, who forced Japan into dropping the demand for China's Liaotung Peninsula, i.e., the future Port Authur and Dairen, and then it was the Japanese who instigated the Chinese overseas [military and non-military] students in launching the secret war against the Russians who refused to leave Manchuria after occupying it since the 1900 boxer turmoil. While Chinese historians ridiculed the Manchus for harvesting the fruits of beans in planting the seeds of cucumber, nobody had actually linked up the Russo-Japanese rivalry, which was the theme running through the first half of the 20th century and directly led to the 1931 invasion and the 1937 war, to the root cause of the Chinese revolution. What happened was that the Chinese flocked to Japan to study the modern science and the military, and it was a common belief that the Russians were the feud of China by fate, not Japan, and the Chinese revolutionaries took it into their hearts.

[Yizheng]

One other thing I like to share with our Russian friend is that the 1911 Chinese Revolution, judging by the elements who participated in the mutinies, was a result of the Russo-Japanese rivalry from 1895 onward. First it was the Russians, plus French and German, who forced Japan into dropping the demand for China's Liaotung Peninsula, i.e., the future Port Authur and Dairen, and then it was the Japanese who instigated the Chinese overseas [military and non-military] students in launching the secret war against the Russians who refused to leave Manchuria after occupying it since the 1900 boxer turmoil. While Chinese historians ridiculed the Manchus for harvesting the fruits of beans in planting the seeds of cucumber, nobody had actually linked up the Russo-Japanese rivalry, which was the theme running through the first half of the 20th century and directly led to the 1931 invasion and the 1937 war, to the root cause of the Chinese revolution. What happened was that the Chinese flocked to Japan to study the modern science and the military, and it was a common belief that the Russians were the feud of China by fate, not Japan, and the Chinese revolutionaries took it into their hearts.

Thanks for all these points. It is a good point you make about the part the Russo-Japanese rivalry played in all the events leading up to Xinhai revolution. I agree very much that this is an important factor. I know the Russian point of view is to find various justifications for its occupation of Manchuria, but I do not agree with those justifications. It was pure colonialist policy, and of course Russia was just pursuing its own interests there. Certainly, I think the Qing court was forced to be grateful to Russia for helping to get the Japanese to relinquish the demand for Liaodong, but it came at the cost of Russian occupation, like you note, and anyway, all Russia's supposed promises of alliance never amounted anything. The other powers picked away at Shandong, Fujian, Guangdong etc, with Russia not doing a thing. After the humiliation of 1894-95, having Manchuria then become a battleground used by two foreign powers to fight their war is just another big humiliation, and that coming after the Boxer troubles, so yes, it was certainly putting one layer of future trouble on another. I agree too with the point of Chinese students going to Japan to study modern subjects, and this idea that Russia was perceived as the greater hereditary enemy. For Japan in any case could look more like an attractive model as an example of an Asian country that had taken on elements of the Western model and then succesfully turned them against the West itself. It is on one hand the country that humiliated China in war, but at the same time an Asian country that defeated Russia in war. In any case, Japan's attraction was felt not just by Chinese students, but by sections of the Qing court and officials too, in the 1898 reforms, in the tension between people like Li hongzhang, who leaned more to Russia, and Guangxu emperor and figures like kang Youwei, with more interest in the Japanese model. So yes, overall, I think you are right to see Russo-Japanese rivalry and the Manchurian question as one of the big threads that continues onwards through and beyond the Xinhai revolution.