7 replies to this topic

[BeatriceRose]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I joined mainly because I came across an interesting video in Youtube and wanted to know what the main consensus is regarding the origin of Koreans.



At first, I wanted to laugh it off as another kooky theory that floats around in the net. But after reading posts on this site as well as some serious studies, and noticing a lack of unanimous conclusions, I'm beginning to wonder.
Are there no easy answers to this one?

Edited by BeatriceRose, 15 April 2011 - 01:03 PM.

[qrasy]

When I just saw the title of the Africa, I thought, what if I say, something like the "origin of Koreans - Africa"? Would anybody think that it's a kooky theory that floats around in the net? (it's just an out-of-Africa theory, Koreans didn't start to develop its difference with other Asians when the ancestors were still in Africa)

But then the video it's something different, seemingly more based on 4 (flawed) arguments.
1. Eating habits
Rice has been there in Northern and Korea China since 10000 years ago, if I recall correctly.
[so if we could assume that noodles in Korea were a later arrival, then we could immediately say that it's just "failure to displace rice in Korea".]

In Chinese, even Beijing Mandarin, "to have a meal" is "吃飯", which can be interpreted as "eat rice", but that shows the importance of rice.
And, in Japan, beri-beri disease appeared because rice had a higher social status there at that time...

2. Language
The basic grammatical structure is closer to Northeast Asian... I don't know why any would claim Austronesian.
e.g. I don't like this book
Japanese: I - [subject marker] - this - book - [object marker] - like - not.
Korean (if I recall correctly): I - [subject marker] - this - book - [object marker] - not - like.
Mandarin, Cantonese: I - not - like - this - [noun counter for book] - book
Thai, Indonesian: I - not - like - book - this.

Primarily open structure is also shared with Swahili and Japanese, it doesn't show any relationship. If any, it's just a convergent evolution; simpler syllables are easier to pronounce fast.
Korean is not "awfully towards open syllables" too. Its usage of consonantal ending is just as frequent as Manchu.

Honorific - it's just a new development as each civilization advances... In Thailand and Indonesia, the system seem to imitate India or something.
Native Korean Numbers - Hana, Dul, Set, Net etc? I don't see any resemblance to Southeast Asian languages.

(tattooing, etc) - I wonder why it's listed in "language" section.
Tattooing is widespread among American natives whether North, South or Meso-America; if any it's those that stopped tattooing that are innovation.
Koreans were matrilineal (in modern times of course they are not)? Never heard of that.
But I know it for Chinese. 姓 ("family name") has 女 ("female") on it.

3. Skull Index
No citation was given, so I can't really discuss about this as I know very little about the subject. But I think one cannot index skull just on one parameter.
And it's not one like members of one ethnic group have the same set of numbers; they have diversity, and easily would overlap with a neighboring group. So it's not like "84" but more like "84±15" or something like that.

(faces)
I'm not sure if the Japanese example taken is typical Japanese, and one can intentionally take Okinawan for that purpose.
And even if he was typical, because of diversity (again), one person can't represent the whole group.

To me while some Koreans look like Southern, many looks to have some special features that are found in Northern. Frankly speaking, given the Shaanxi example, I would think of Korean.

4. DNA research
Haplogroup C3c common among Northeast Asians - I think it's just a genetic drift, with proportions distorted over time - and Haplogroup C actually hinted admixture with pre-Mongoloid people in East Asia.
And in the quoted table, C3c were descended from only one male just around 3500 years ago! It's only a very recent spread even amongst the Northern Mongoloids.
(and if Genghis Khan could distort the Y-DNA frequencies, I don't see why a Korean King wouldn't also distort Korean Y-DNA frequencies.)

If we exclude all C, D, E haplogroups, then the O's would still be the most common Y-haplogroup in Mongolia, Manchu, Japan etc.

Tree for O*-M95 -> I cannot see where Korean enters, or maybe it's the color contrast that is not too good.

If I'm not mistaken, Austronesian leans more towards O1.... http://en.wikipedia....roup_O1_(Y-DNA)
and other Os are less common for them.
For a group where O2a is more common, it would be Austro-Asiatic.

It's not that O2 doesn't exist in North China, it's just somehow become rare there.

Edited by qrasy, 15 April 2011 - 08:03 PM.

[mohistManiac]

When I just saw the title of the Africa, I thought, what if I say, something like the "origin of Koreans - Africa"? Would anybody think that it's a kooky theory that floats around in the net? (it's just an out-of-Africa theory, Koreans didn't start to develop its difference with other Asians when the ancestors were still in Africa)

But then the video it's something different, seemingly more based on 4 (flawed) arguments.
1. Eating habits
Rice has been there in Northern and Korea China since 10000 years ago, if I recall correctly.
[so if we could assume that noodles in Korea were a later arrival, then we could immediately say that it's just "failure to displace rice in Korea".]

I think the reference to noodles may be more of the flour type foods that are eaten in the north where rice would have been less eaten than when compared to wet agricultural places that could grow plenty of it. So noodles don't really have to spread but millet and other grains would have to spread. So therefore because the grains didn't replace the rice it was taken to indicate that the people which transmit the rice in the beginning and those which have furthered the agricultural land extension of rice may be the same or quite similar. Of course this is in context of thousands of years ago.

[SNK_1408]

The video author is Hundredsha, a well known racist troll, some even told me he's active 2ch member, a right wing Japanese portal.
I wouldn't take his claim seriously, he's been making up all kinds of theory.
Last time he introduced himself as Manchu from Taiwan, he's also seemed active at Asia finest site operating under various accounts.

[qrasy]

I think the reference to noodles may be more of the flour type foods that are eaten in the north where rice would have been less eaten than when compared to wet agricultural places that could grow plenty of it. So noodles don't really have to spread but millet and other grains would have to spread. So therefore because the grains didn't replace the rice it was taken to indicate that the people which transmit the rice in the beginning and those which have furthered the agricultural land extension of rice may be the same or quite similar. Of course this is in context of thousands of years ago.

Climate might have changed, too, if its 12000 years ago.
And as mentioned above, preference for rice might be just social status instead of any practical reason.

[mohistManiac]

Climate might have changed, too, if its 12000 years ago.
And as mentioned above, preference for rice might be just social status instead of any practical reason.

The practical reason to me seems to be higher caloric food. 12000 years ago people didn't have much concept of what is social status everyone was basically equal. The reason why the north China plains didn't adopt it as they should have was probably due to the arid climate coming from the west where all the moisture has been locked off by the much higher terrain. Irrigation was much later during warring states when they had to feed huge armies but even as they did adopt it to some degree grains culture wasn't wiped out.

[mariusj]

The practical reason to me seems to be higher caloric food. 12000 years ago people didn't have much concept of what is social status everyone was basically equal. The reason why the north China plains didn't adopt it as they should have was probably due to the arid climate coming from the west where all the moisture has been locked off by the much higher terrain. Irrigation was much later during warring states when they had to feed huge armies but even as they did adopt it to some degree grains culture wasn't wiped out.

Hierarchy exists in EVERY kind of creature in all form of society, from a lion's pack, to a fishes school. It is not unnatural to assume that human also have a hierarchy, just that hierarchy will probably not be what we think of it.

[Karakhan]

we already have plenty of threads on the genetics of Koreans, in fact there's one in this very page.
secondly, its probably NOT worth while refuting a random youtube video claiming various data but not mentioning its sources.
Even in this forum, we have problems when members take these same graphs, take them out of context and re-interpret them to their own agendas.
Its best not to bother with these videos (and theres no shortage of them too!)