6 replies to this topic

[CasualHistorian]

Not sure on the protocol of posting news stories, but here is the site :
http://articles.time...-bc-archaeology

"BEIJING: An unknown kingdom dating back to 1046 B.C. has been unearthed in north China, archaeologists said.

The kingdom is probably from the Xizhou dynasty (1046 to 771 B.C.), Xinhua reported.

Engraving on bronze wares found in tombs in Shanxi province's Linfen city indicate that the region was reigned by Ba Bo, or Count of the Ba kingdom, the archaeologists said.


The Ba kingdom had never been seen in any historical record before, they said.

"The tombs gave us a chance to see the Ba kingdom that had been forgotten by history. It also sheds light on the Xizhou dynasty's feudal system and technology as well as exchanges and integration of different ethnic groups of that time," said Wang Wei, head of the Institute of Archaeology of the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

"Records of the kingdom might have been lost in history. It is also possible that Ba was among a cluster of small kingdoms and was neglected by ancient historians," said Xie Yaoting, deputy head of the Shanxi Institute of Archaeology."


This sounds awesome! Is this really the first record of this "Ba kingdom" that modern historians have found like CASS said?

[BlackHumour]

For ba kingdom, yes, it's the 1st...but there was a state named Ba living up to the Qin dynasty. It was in Chongqing, Sichuan.

Ba may have aided the founders of the Zhou Dynasty in its overthrow of the Shang Dynasty at the Battle of Muye; however, Ba's first definitive appearance in recorded history occurred in 703 BCE; the Zuo Zhuan recorded that Ba took part in a joint military operation with Chu against Deng.

weird..it's dated at 1046, when the shang dynasty ended. Also, Linfen city is actually part of the Zhou dynasty territory.

Something i found about the western zhou dynasty, AKA Xizhou.

The dynasty was successful for about seventy-five years and then slowly lost power. The former Shāng lands were divided into hereditary fiefs which became increasingly independent of the king. In 771, barbarians drove the Zhōu out of the Wèi River Valley; afterwards that real power was in the hands of the king's nominal vassals.

Well, maybe Ba was just a small kingdom..But i would have to see the chinese character for it to comfirm what i suspect. That the Ba state and kingdom might be the same thing. Why? seeing from the news report and reading on wiki. It came into being at 1046 bce and ended at 771 bce..Both the Ba kingdom and XiZhou dynasty came in at the same time. Both yet also left at the same time. There was no idea when the Ba state came into being. Also since the "Shāng lands were divided into hereditary fiefs which became increasingly independent of the king", it's easy to see how a Ba kingdom might appear and not be recorded or lost. It might also be that after 771BCE, they fled to the south and hence forming the Ba state in Chongqing. well, it's pretty logical to flee south from northen barbarians eh? LOL
Since we don't know when the Ba state was created, it could be in 771BCE. well, i am not sure though, i will leave it to your opinion.

sources:
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Western_Zhou
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_(state)
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Zhou_Dynasty

[qrasy]

Given the number of homophones in Mandarin Chinese, the "ba" is quite likely to be different.

I read that there was a small state called 六 ('six'), so one could reasonably also expect 八 ('eight') instead of 巴 (as found in Sichuan).
Or maybe 罷, referring to a type of animal?
峇灞叐癹軷拔 or whatever are also possible.

Edited by qrasy, 26 April 2011 - 07:00 PM.

[BlackHumour]

Maybe, but we won't know until we know where the news got it's info from..anyway it's all just a hypothesis..hahas..
I remember there was a 灞river or something like that..lols..well you know, our language, as problematic as it is ever since it was written in 汉语拼音.

[Loong]

Apart from the general accepted history, which is based on archeological findings and confirmation, a lot of kingdoms were either historically not recorded, or the written history is damaged/lost.

Anyway, it won't change the course of chinese history, but will be sort of interesting (like a side quest in a game).

[Bao Pu]

I have been unsuccessful in trying to find more information about this find. Anyone else?

[qrasy]

I have been unsuccessful in trying to find more information about this find. Anyone else?

[del]I tried to find a corresponding article in Chinese, but couldn't find it.[/del]

Edit: Finally found it: http://www.xhstv.com...sp?vid_id=15647
The "Ba" there is 「霸」.
「霸伯」("count of 'Ba'") is probably not that high a rank, I'm not sure if "kingdom" is an appropriate translation.

There's another site presenting the same news in English, but with a map: http://previous.pres...ctionid=3510212

A related news in "Times of India":
http://articles.time...chaeologists-bc

Edited by qrasy, 27 April 2011 - 05:46 PM.