38 replies to this topic

[light]

Also, if you bothered reading Shiji, fate is implied heavily there. Liu Bang was crushed so thoroughly at least three times, that if it was any other commander Liu Bang would of died or be captured, yet some sort of intervention stopped that from happening. I believe strongly that Liu Bang would not of been captured by Han/Xiang. When Xiang Yu's full cavalry pursuing one cart, and these were not amateur riders, and that cart got away, what makes you think anyone can capture Liu Bang?

If you even bother reading shiji, you will know Liu Bang escaped because Xiang Yu only had 30 000 troops pursuing him while he had 600 000 troops. Just the confusion and choas caused by the 600 000 troops escaping creates enough time for him to escape.
If Xiang Yu had a larger troops than Liu Bang, there was no way Liu Bang could escape.
It is amusing to even know that someone can think that Liu Bang can escape because he is very good in running and that nobody can capture him

[light]

Han Xin's victories were done mostly through surprise. This is not to take away his genius from him, but rather, IF you know what Han Xin would do, will he still be able to achieve the victories he held? On the other hand, even if you KNEW what Xiang Yu will do, it will make no difference, he will crush you.

For example, Han Xin defeated Long Qie by tricking him into the river than flooding it; Long Qie was told by Xiang Yu to not move, just sit there and hole in. If Long Qie follow Xiang Yu's order, than Han Xin would not be able to win a through victory. Xiang Yu crushed Liu Bang at Peng Cheng, even if they KNEW what Xiang Yu intended to do, it would make no difference. Peng Cheng was fortified, he was outnumbered almost 20:1, and he destroyed that army.

Xiang Yu's victory was also done by suprise.

He lauched a suprise attack on Liu Bang's troops thus he was able to defeat him with just 30 000 troops.

He could defeat Zhang Han's troops because he lauched a suprise attack with less troops than Zhang Han and also because he was lucky that the Qin empire at that time was having alot of internal cour politics which makes Zhang Han unable to get reinforcements.

Going by your logic, almost all wars are won by suprise and not by ability and wisdom.

You can even come up with many wraped up military theories such as Cao Cao defeated Yuan Shao in the battle of guandu not because he was smart but because he lauched a suprise attack to burn all the food supplies that Yuan Shao have. Zhou Yu defeat Cao Cao in battle of chibi because he lauched a suprise attack using fire.

Please go and read books on military

[jamjoh]

I agree with light.

When I was half way done the Romance of the Three Kingdoms I wondered "don't these guys ever learn?" I mean its ridiculous to assume that every victory needs a surprise attack or something, and if your enemy uses surprise attacks all the time they shouldn't be surprising anymore. The saying fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me, comes to mind.

[mariusj]

He lauched a suprise attack on Liu Bang's troops thus he was able to defeat him with just 30 000 troops.

How do you mount a surprise attack on a fortified position with cavalry?

He could defeat Zhang Han's troops because he lauched a suprise attack with less troops than Zhang Han and also because he was lucky that the Qin empire at that time was having alot of internal cour politics which makes Zhang Han unable to get reinforcements.

How do you surprise attack someone on a OPEN field?

Going by your logic, almost all wars are won by suprise and not by ability and wisdom.

Enough of them were.

You can even come up with many wraped up military theories such as Cao Cao defeated Yuan Shao in the battle of guandu not because he was smart but because he lauched a suprise attack to burn all the food supplies that Yuan Shao have. Zhou Yu defeat Cao Cao in battle of chibi because he lauched a suprise attack using fire.

Well, Yuan Shao was ADVISED of the importance of supply route, and chose who he thinks fits best, and yes, Cao Cao did win that battle with surprise but he forced Yuan Shao from withdrawing because of lack of supply.

Zhou Yu defeated Cao Cao on a open river, if you believe the flaming boat, then its a series of ships that came on OPEN RIVER that crashed into his ships and burn them. But Cao Cao was more or less beaten by sickness.

Please go and read books on military

I bet I read more than you did.

[oldbreadstinks]

Your argument is flawed.

Xiang Yu was not well liked. Han Xin, Zhang Liang and even fan zheng left him. Ying Bu and the rest of the generals and warlords all rebelled against him.

The land of Lu is only a small minority.

The majority of people hate Xiang Yu for his cruelty in killing 300 000 Qin soliders who have already surrendered. You should not read history books like a robot without using common sense

I don't think the majority of the people hated him for the killing of the 300,000 Qin soldiers. at the point of time the Qin weren't exactly popular and there's the incident with Bai Qi's execution of Zhao troops earlier.
Qin people maybe but I doubt that the rest would hate Xiang Yu for that.

Fan Zeng left mainly because he wasn't used properly and his advice weren't taken.

[oldbreadstinks]

Xiang Yu's victory was also done by suprise.

He lauched a suprise attack on Liu Bang's troops thus he was able to defeat him with just 30 000 troops.

He could defeat Zhang Han's troops because he lauched a suprise attack with less troops than Zhang Han and also because he was lucky that the Qin empire at that time was having alot of internal cour politics which makes Zhang Han unable to get reinforcements.

Going by your logic, almost all wars are won by suprise and not by ability and wisdom.

You can even come up with many wraped up military theories such as Cao Cao defeated Yuan Shao in the battle of guandu not because he was smart but because he lauched a suprise attack to burn all the food supplies that Yuan Shao have. Zhou Yu defeat Cao Cao in battle of chibi because he lauched a suprise attack using fire.

Please go and read books on military

wouldn't it require ability and wisdom of the commander to pull off a surprise attack?

I mean if we're talking about military tatics here, a few of the conflicts whether modern or ancient depended on the commander either taking the chance/opportunity or attempting to create a diversion or a feint to move the enemy into a position where they would be unable to respond fully?

so surprise attacks don't actually have to be one sided with only the attacker making the moves.

[mariusj]

I guess I should clarify my wordings.

When I said surprise attacks on Han Xin, I certain do not mean it in the way of 突襲，but rather in the sense of 奇謀。

For example, baiting someone across river and then flooding it. Or, baiting someone to tie up their boats together, and then ram them with flaming ships.

Not like, cross a few thousand leagues through hostile territory, arrive at dawn and assault a fortified position. Or sinking your own supplies and charging a besieging force.

In the sense of Xiang Yu, they knew he was coming at Ju Lu, yet he crashed into them so hard he scattered Wang Li's forces and put so much fear into the various nobles that they dare not stand. In the battle of Peng Cheng, he attacked into a fortified position, with light cavalry, against 560,000 men, who were unable to put up resistance of any form or reorganize their units, but was harried into a river. These are tactical maneuver that occur in your face. It is happening and nothing could be done. On the other hand, if someone is building a dam on the high ground and I saw it, I will probably not wade into a shallow river in rainy season. But if someone is just crushing my army and prevent me from reorganizing my army, what can I possibly do?

So this is what I meant when I say Xiang Yu is perhaps greater, as no one could possibly emulate him. No one would charge a superior army that was prepared for fighting and crush them so thoroughly that the supply commander committed suicide by self-immolation. On the other hand, plenty of people have used various genius to use environment to cause a great upset. To me, something that cannot be emulated is superior than something that could be emulated [and I think most of the time when you try you will certainly fail].

[mariusj]

If you bothered to even google, or wiki, you will know how foolish this sounds.
I will try to correct you by actually showing you Shiji, and translate it if you don't read Chinese.

凡五十六万人，东伐楚。项王闻之，即令诸将击齐，而自以精兵三万人南从鲁出胡陵。
A total of 560,000 men, crossing east to attack Chu. King Xiang heard it, and command his generals to [continue to] attack Qi, yet personally commanded 30,000 elite forces and march south from Lu towards Hu Ling.

四月，汉皆已入彭城，收其货宝美人，日置酒高会。项王乃西从萧，晨击汉军而东，至彭城，日中，大破汉军。
April, Han has captured Peng Cheng and entered, took the treasury and the Harlem, and began to feast. King Xiang THEN from Xiao at west, and attack Han at dawn to east, at Peng Cheng, by mid day, the Han forces were crushed.

汉军皆走，相随入穀、泗水，杀汉卒十馀万人。
The Han force fled towards the Gu [?] and Xi [?] river, and more than 100,000 Han were killed.

汉卒皆南走山,楚又追击至灵壁东睢水上.
The Han troops then fled south towards the mountain, Chu caught up with them, and at east of LinBi, at the water of Huai River.

汉军卻，为楚所挤，多杀，汉卒十馀万人皆入睢水，睢水为之不流。
The Han troops stopped, but were harried by the Chu troops, many died, 100,000 Han troops went into the Huai River, the water was stopped.

围汉王三匝。
King of Han was surrounded through and through with three layers.

於是大风从西北而起，折木发屋，扬沙石，窈冥昼晦，逢迎楚军。
YET a great wind rise from NW, breaking houses and lifting trees, rising stones, covering the sky and the light, right into the Chu army.

楚军大乱，坏散，而汉王乃得与数十骑遁去，欲过沛，收家室而西；楚亦使人追之沛，取汉王家：家皆亡，不与汉王相见
Chu force was in chaos, and the encirclement was broken, the King of Han was able to fled with ten or so riders, hoping to go to Pei, and take his family west; Chu also send man to Pei, and was able to took his family; the house was gone, and cannot see the King of Han.

汉王道逢得孝惠、鲁元，乃载行。
The King of Han met with [Prince] Xiao Hui and [Princess] Lu Yuan, and took them with him.

楚骑追汉王，汉王急，推堕孝惠、鲁元车下，滕公常下收载之。
The Chu riders chased King of Han, the King fears, and pushed [Prince] Xiao Hui and [Princess] Lu Yuan down the cart, [the early of Huai Ying, XiaoHou Yin] Lord Teng often have to pick them up again.

如是者三。
And it occurred three times.

If you even bother reading shiji, you will know Liu Bang escaped because Xiang Yu only had 30 000 troops pursuing him while he had 600 000 troops.

I did, did you?
Liu Bang did not have 600k with him at that time. Most of them were scattered. He escaped, if you read my above translation, with a few man.

Just the confusion and choas caused by the 600 000 troops escaping creates enough time for him to escape.

The confusion and chaos caused by 600,000 troops DID NOT create opportunity for him to escaped. Hundreds of thousands died at various moments, yet Chu was able to surrounded him completely with three layers

If Xiang Yu had a larger troops than Liu Bang, there was no way Liu Bang could escape.

So you don't think SiMa Qian had 'fate' in mind when he said, yet a great wind rises.... crashing into the Chu troops.

It is amusing to even know that someone can think that Liu Bang can escape because he is very good in running and that nobody can capture him

Its amusing to know someone actually DIDN'T think much of Liu Bang's luck, and his ability to run away.

I didn't say nobody can capture him, I merely asked what makes you think Han Xin could.

[jamjoh]

Just to clarify...the part I agree with light about is that battles are all won by surprise, which obviously they are not.

[allie]

Xiang Yu only makes a good general but he doesn't make a good ruler or emperor. Just like what Han Xin say that if he command troops the more the better but if Liu Bang command troops at most 100 000 soliders. When Liu bang asked why, he say he is only a general but Liu Bang is someone who can command all the generals.

Liu Bang is more of a threat than Xiang Yu so Liu Bang should be get rid of 1st.

Liu Bang managed to escape because of luck. He escape because of the strong wind. He will not be so lucky every time. Of course if you belive that he escape because its heaven's will that he become the next emperor so heaven send a strong wind to help him escape, than you will think that nobody can capture him.

Otherwise, he will not be so lucky the next time and with Han Xin and Xiang Yu combined strength of 400 000 troops and it will not be a difficult task to capture him.

[oldbreadstinks]

Xiang Yu only makes a good general but he doesn't make a good ruler or emperor. Just like what Han Xin say that if he command troops the more the better but if Liu Bang command troops at most 100 000 soliders. When Liu bang asked why, he say he is only a general but Liu Bang is someone who can command all the generals.

Liu Bang is more of a threat than Xiang Yu so Liu Bang should be get rid of 1st.

Liu Bang managed to escape because of luck. He escape because of the strong wind. He will not be so lucky every time. Of course if you belive that he escape because its heaven's will that he become the next emperor so heaven send a strong wind to help him escape, than you will think that nobody can capture him.

Otherwise, he will not be so lucky the next time and with Han Xin and Xiang Yu combined strength of 400 000 troops and it will not be a difficult task to capture him.

yeah but quite likely to those living in that era, Xiang Yu may appear to be a bigger threat.
Since despite all his troops and allies,Liu Bang was still the one running in defeat.
And without Han Xin, Liu Bang might not even be able to leave Hanzhong. Liu Bang wasn't renown for being great in winning wars.

[mariusj]

Xiang Yu only makes a good general but he doesn't make a good ruler or emperor.

Why?
What have you heard of Xiang Yu's rule, that made him a bad ruler?

Just like what Han Xin say that if he command troops the more the better but if Liu Bang command troops at most 100 000 soliders. When Liu bang asked why, he say he is only a general but Liu Bang is someone who can command all the generals.

You can either take that literately, or you can be like me and impressed by Han Xin's quick save.

Liu Bang is more of a threat than Xiang Yu so Liu Bang should be get rid of 1st.

Why?

Liu Bang managed to escape because of luck. He escape because of the strong wind. He will not be so lucky every time. Of course if you belive that he escape because its heaven's will that he become the next emperor so heaven send a strong wind to help him escape, than you will think that nobody can capture him.

Otherwise, he will not be so lucky the next time and with Han Xin and Xiang Yu combined strength of 400 000 troops and it will not be a difficult task to capture him.

He didn't just escape once. There are numerous times where he seems to face certain death [while all death is certain, this is really really certain] but he seemingly escape unscratched. To the average people, or even scholars like Sima Qian, it would seem something is sending a strong signal.

[allie]

Why?
What have you heard of Xiang Yu's rule, that made him a bad ruler?

He didn't know how to use people, making alot of mistakes like not using Han Xin, not listening to Fan Zhen. His choice of distributing his land to his generals was a very serious mistake.

He didn't know how to listen to good advice.

There are so many flaws in his character which makes him a bad ruler

[mariusj]

He didn't know how to use people, making alot of mistakes like not using Han Xin, not listening to Fan Zhen.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

So first of all, Han Xin was given as high of a position as any man could possibly have been receive in Xiang Yu's army. Its like a new graduate complain about not been made CFO upon graduation.
He did listen to Fan Zhen, and he weight up on it, and sometimes he follow, sometimes he does not. That's what rulers do, they listen to adviser and chose whether to act upon it or not.

NONE of which have anything to do with ruling. The making us of Han Xin is how well he chose to promote COMPLETELY unknown figures [of whom Liu Bang also sent away, if not for Xiao He] while the second is how much he thinks of advise of others, nothing about his rule.

His choice of distributing his land to his generals was a very serious mistake.

I hear this quite often. Why don't you tell me exactly WHAT was the mistake. Was he been unfair? Was he not generous enough?

TO the contrary, he was fair and generous in distributing land to his generals, promoting numerous man in to the position of lords. Its just that everyone thinks or wants more, and they rebel Xiang Yu simply because he was the greatest obstacle of them all.

He didn't know how to listen to good advice.

Listening to good advise is hind sight.

Either way, that have nothing to do with ruling.

There are so many flaws in his character which makes him a bad ruler

Like what?

Does he not follow Ren? If you ask any Confucian, what quality would make him a good ruler, they would tell you Ren is the most important quality.

[oldbreadstinks]

He didn't know how to use people, making alot of mistakes like not using Han Xin, not listening to Fan Zhen. His choice of distributing his land to his generals was a very serious mistake.

He didn't know how to listen to good advice.

There are so many flaws in his character which makes him a bad ruler

i kinda thought of that as him being too powerful.
if i haven't read that wrongly its like people we have nowadays, when you're too good at what you do its hard to talk advice from others especially when you think them beneath you.
that and him being not cunning enough were what I considered main reasons for his defeat.
Its hard to say if he won't turn out to be a good ruler when he's matured a bit more after a few setbacks.

Liu Bang flaws weren't any better. Liu Bang charged into the palace to grab treasure and women as soon as he conquered Qin.