17 replies to this topic

[mohistManiac]

Yeah, I believe some of the ancient China kingdom are multicultural state. Chu state for example I believe is initially homogeneous state, later on they absorb other culture and become multicultural state as they expanded south and east.

http://en.wikipedia....(state)#Culture

It wasn't just Chu and the concept of diversity wasn't fringe. Other states were no more initially homogeneous and then progressively multicultural as they expanded in their various directions to include their own indigenous elements of culture. The argument could be made to say that it was Qin that was most multicultural since it imported elements of culture in every way from all around ranging from architectural to burial to philosophical. Qin thereby made the core of many Chinese systems available to themselves and co opted them in ways that would have only occurred in their own domain since they also had a militaristic culture central to their society.

I wonder if the same can be said about Yue state, which explain the influence of both Miao/Hmong languages on toponyms and the Chinese writings found on the sword of Goujian.

Regarding the writing system, I believe it is safe to say the ancestors of modern Han Chinese are the one discover since they are the one who inherits it and still using it in modern day.

Indeed the same can be said for the Yue state because it conquered Wu and parts of Qi I believe.

While it is safe to say the ancestors of modern Han Chinese are discoverers of Chinese script this just isn't a really meaningful way of looking at it. Which is why to say Han Chinese are called as such, by the metric of Qin clerical Chinese script, only conceives of a splintery fragment of all the things available in China to which can be issued into correlation with the Han. For example we could also name the Han Chinese for their love of silk, painting, and Hanfu which has nothing to do with the script which originated in areas that could produce no silk. Or we can name the Han Chinese for their 4 great inventions of paper printing compass and gunpowder which saw very high use during the time of Tang and Song dynasty but by these times a great majority of everyone in China had already become a member of Han Chinese. It may be more or less meaningful depending on how you look at it. The point is many of these splintery fragments which end up constituting the Han whole are derived from many diverse regions containing ethnic groups each once having had an identity to call their own.

[Rykard]

It wasn't just Chu and the concept of diversity wasn't fringe. Other states were no more initially homogeneous and then progressively multicultural as they expanded in their various directions to include their own indigenous elements of culture. The argument could be made to say that it was Qin that was most multicultural since it imported elements of culture in every way from all around ranging from architectural to burial to philosophical. Qin thereby made the core of many Chinese systems available to themselves and co opted them in ways that would have only occurred in their own domain since they also had a militaristic culture central to their society.

Indeed the same can be said for the Yue state because it conquered Wu and parts of Qi I believe.

While it is safe to say the ancestors of modern Han Chinese are discoverers of Chinese script this just isn't a really meaningful way of looking at it. Which is why to say Han Chinese are called as such, by the metric of Qin clerical Chinese script, only conceives of a splintery fragment of all the things available in China to which can be issued into correlation with the Han. For example we could also name the Han Chinese for their love of silk, painting, and Hanfu which has nothing to do with the script which originated in areas that could produce no silk. Or we can name the Han Chinese for their 4 great inventions of paper printing compass and gunpowder which saw very high use during the time of Tang and Song dynasty but by these times a great majority of everyone in China had already become a member of Han Chinese. It may be more or less meaningful depending on how you look at it. The point is many of these splintery fragments which end up constituting the Han whole are derived from many diverse regions containing ethnic groups each once having had an identity to call their own.

If that is the case, doesn't that mean the same can also be apply to any other kingdoms around the world since most modern ethnicity are not created during that period of time. For example, Gojoseon can not be considered Korean despite whatever culture similarity you found or any other ancient kingdoms in Europe can not be considered a kingdom to a certain country even there similarity in culture. The same can also be applied to Miao and that is Goujian and the people of Yue are not related to Miao despite all those toponyms. Beside, I'm sure most Han Chinese culture originated from Han Chinese themselves, not something they steal from others. Ancient Chinese writing can be traced back as far as Shang. Remember, genetic research also proved that all Han Chinese share similar ancestor, at least paternally.

In contrast, there are consistent strong genetic similarities in the Y chromosome haplogroup distribution between the southern and northern Chinese population, and the result of principal component analysis indicates almost all Han populations form a tight cluster in their Y chromosome.

http://en.wikipedia....se#DNA_analysis

Edited by Rykard, 24 August 2011 - 09:03 AM.

[mohistManiac]

If that is the case, doesn't that mean the same can also be apply to any other kingdoms around the world since most modern ethnicity are not created during that period of time. For example, Gojoseon can not be considered Korean despite whatever culture similarity you found or any other ancient kingdoms in Europe can not be considered a kingdom to a certain country even there similarity in culture. The same can also be applied to Miao and that is Goujian and the people of Yue are not related to Miao despite all those toponyms. Beside, I'm sure most Han Chinese culture originated from Han Chinese themselves, not something they steal from others. Ancient Chinese writing can be traced back as far as Shang. Remember, genetic research also proved that all Han Chinese share similar ancestor, at least paternally.



http://en.wikipedia....se#DNA_analysis

Lots of things can determine ethnicity. DNA from parents stock won't prevent offspring from doing something terribly wild and spreading all around the world only to drive the conditions for further ethnic differentiation. Without going into that it will suffice to say that there were the existence of different ethnic groups within China even if we just focus on the Zhou period. Two decisive factors. One the Zhou dismantled leading to indigenous popular elite to grab power which led to different political entities regardless of the common noble heritage. Two warring states were conscripting on a mass level for total war and people were only motivated to fight for their own state and not desert it. With regards to the second reason this isn't just war lordism between some guys wanting to create havens for their best buddies. If a state had gotten systematically wiped out it would have been considered ethnic genocide. The first reason drove forth conditions for the second reason. It has also been argued that the major states emerged the way they did because of the nascent identities that have already existed since the neolithic period.

As for ancient states in Korean territory it was indeed the same. They all concentrated via a governmental power strong enough to keep everyone united to form a Korean group. The way all the states in China formed a Han Chinese group.

Edited by mohistManiac, 24 August 2011 - 11:53 AM.