8 replies to this topic

[chinesehistoryboy]

Han Chinese are a mix of many different groups, a melting pot. Can we view Chinese history as Han vs non Han. Not entirely because Han is a fluid concept, a race that kept getting bigger throughout history. A foreign dynasty to me is one that conquers China from the outside and imposes rule. The native population rebel on the grounds of ''ethnicity'' and ''race'' rather than mere oppression. If there were any ''Han'' nationalist uprisings duing the Sui, Tang, Qin, or Zhou then let me know. Otherwise, there's nothing remotely foreign about their rule.

[mohistManiac]

Han Chinese are a mix of many different groups, a melting pot. Can we view Chinese history as Han vs non Han. Not entirely because Han is a fluid concept, a race that kept getting bigger throughout history. A foreign dynasty to me is one that conquers China from the outside and imposes rule. The native population rebel on the grounds of ''ethnicity'' and ''race'' rather than mere oppression. If there were any ''Han'' nationalist uprisings duing the Sui, Tang, Qin, or Zhou then let me know. Otherwise, there's nothing remotely foreign about their rule.

Foreign reign over any native population by another is often seen in the light of a cultural gap which can't be easily bridged. Where a native population becomes resolutely aware that they have to become "reaccepted" into society is perhaps where the brute force of rule is most felt and for better or worse acute social conditions arise which weren't present before. The rulers are in a position to determine all the business of what is culturally valid but many areas less associated with their rule may remain relatively unchanged. The Qin and Zhou were just such dynasties. Qin unified northern China at a time when their own state was considered less culturally savvy but yet through military might they were able to refashion the script, laws, road and cart width etc which suited Qin so that they would have to change the least. The Zhou were also culturally distinct from the Shang from whom they took their power and many religious concepts were altered as a result. One way of looking at it basically reduces the reality of Chinese dynasties into a nihilist concern of what ought to be seen as the most essentially Chinese dynasty from which all other dynasties must measure against in order to extract the concept of foreign. However the qualitative awareness of what is foreign is different to those who were living at the times and have the inside scoop as to how much imperative pressure they may have felt to embody the changes or to cope with them.

[chinesehistoryboy]

Foreign reign over any native population by another is often seen in the light of a cultural gap which can't be easily bridged. Where a native population becomes resolutely aware that they have to become "reaccepted" into society is perhaps where the brute force of rule is most felt and for better or worse acute social conditions arise which weren't present before. The rulers are in a position to determine all the business of what is culturally valid but many areas less associated with their rule may remain relatively unchanged. The Qin and Zhou were just such dynasties. Qin unified northern China at a time when their own state was considered less culturally savvy but yet through military might they were able to refashion the script, laws, road and cart width etc which suited Qin so that they would have to change the least. The Zhou were also culturally distinct from the Shang from whom they took their power and many religious concepts were altered as a result. One way of looking at it basically reduces the reality of Chinese dynasties into a nihilist concern of what ought to be seen as the most essentially Chinese dynasty from which all other dynasties must measure against in order to extract the concept of foreign. However the qualitative awareness of what is foreign is different to those who were living at the times and have the inside scoop as to how much imperative pressure they may have felt to embody the changes or to cope with them.

Whether or not a dynasty is foreign depends on the perceptions of the people who were living during that time period. We should look at history through their eyes instead of focusing on the ethnicity of the ruling class. cough...cough...cough...guest chinghiz...cough...cough...troll...troll..cough...cough...a,I fell so much better after my cough syrup. Every enlightening mohist, do provide more.

[mohistManiac]

Whether or not a dynasty is foreign depends on the perceptions of the people who were living during that time period. We should look at history through their eyes instead of focusing on the ethnicity of the ruling class. cough...cough...cough...guest chinghiz...cough...cough...troll...troll..cough...cough...a,I fell so much better after my cough syrup. Every enlightening mohist, do provide more.

I simply pointed out what can possibly make a historical Chinese dynasty be seen as foreign which you may try to deny that I ignored the accountability of ethnicity but I actually did include it in my answer. On the other hand, if you've only got a focus on ethnicity as the sole indicator of what ought to be obviously Chinese then astonishingly it would simply appear that there were no foreign dynasties because it would have been expected that at some point in time people birthed to a different ethnicity but in the capacity of ruling would eventually assimilate like the Qin, Zhou, Tang, Sui. etc.

[chinesehistoryboy]

I understand the rationale of why Yuan and Qing can be perceived as ''foreign''. I get it, but people are trying to use the same rationale for the Sui, tang, zhou and qin. It does'nt add up. There's logic thats out of place. Han Chinese is mixed. If we were looking at dynasties from a han vs non han perspective, would'nt we be assuming that the han race is static. I think during the Song and Ming, the han identity was consolidated fully. By those times, China was fully able to differentiate between han and non han. The mongols and manchus were easily spottable.

[mohistManiac]

I understand the rationale of why Yuan and Qing can be perceived as ''foreign''. I get it, but people are trying to use the same rationale for the Sui, tang, zhou and qin. It does'nt add up. There's logic thats out of place. Han Chinese is mixed. If we were looking at dynasties from a han vs non han perspective, would'nt we be assuming that the han race is static. I think during the Song and Ming, the han identity was consolidated fully. By those times, China was fully able to differentiate between han and non han. The mongols and manchus were easily spottable.

The usual sensibility for how Yuan and Qing are considered foreign is actually not a good one. Basically a lot of people just seem to think that because Mongols and Manchus have different styles of whatever and ate different foods and did different whatnots that the component of foreign ought to come to mind. I mean certainly that's part of it but it really concerns a sensibility which recognizes ethnicity in the most shallowest of ways that when applied universally to China would have provided more than just the Han ethnicity. Here and there in China burials were different, or maybe the architecture was dissimilar, or the people worked different cash crops, different religious etc. The only thing that drew them together was the long arm of bureaucracy which held the most distant parts of the empire into a contiguous state entity. And this was arguably the mission each dynasty presented itself until someone with sinister ambitions came along to sweep the dynasty off its feet so that it could be reset in their preferences. The reason then why certain dynasties (and I won't name which since it's a relative thing) appear more foreign than others is because of the historical progression in how these dynasties played themselves out whether they assimilated to a certain population and whether or not there was a fuss when things were trying to get settled. There is basically no dynasty that could resist being defined even as a little bit foreign because the reasoning that I just explained and because expansionism isn't as straight forward as something which just emanates from a center. On that account even the Zhou would have been as foreign to the Shang as the Shang would have been as foreign to the Xia or whatever that came before.

[KLdome]

Wouldn't the Republican and People's dynasties be the most foreign because of the ideological bases?

[mohistManiac]

Wouldn't the Republican and People's dynasties be the most foreign because of the ideological bases?

This is if you are basing it on ideology that seems foreign or not depending yet again on the locality. I am reminded of when there were Buddhist purges during the Tang dynasty because Buddhism was thought to be a foreign import but again this would depend on who you were. If you were Buddhist certainly you would have been looking at the Tang dynasty in a different light.

[cantonia's dim sum fak choy]

When people in China feel its foreign then its foreign. Yuan, Qing, northern dynasties, jurchen jin, khitan liao, and western xia are all foreign. Tang dynasty can be considered chinese. The emperors identified with china and today, all chinese people regard it with high honour. Only foreigners use the blood excuse. Thats their only valid argument because they have no substance. I remember on an old thread where kaixin was defending china's tang history against a racist japanese-korean troll named heisui. I don't know why kaixin was criticized becuase he was right. Heisui was the real demon. ''The tang emperors conquered china's land''.............................................oops about centuries behind. They were born in China, raised armies in China and controlled china's heartland before expanding into sinkiang and central asia. The so-called xianbei homeland (siberia, mongolia, manchuria)....tang never really controlled those lands. The tang also had A SINGLE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE: MIDDLE CHINESE!, where is the xianbei language or this imaginary xianbei dominance. xianbei domination of china my foot! Those people couldn't even maintain their ethnic identity by the time the sui rolled around. China wins again. They got in, but they stay forever.