18 replies to this topic

[thekyuke]

I was researching a linguistic matter on another forum and stumbled across what seems unmistakable evidence of Africans in early China. The thread degenerated into flaming and irrelevancy-before joining I've been lurking long enough here to see that the intellectual standard here i too high for that to happen here.
My evidence is craniometric, scripts,cultural features and linguistic similarities. In fact it appears their survivors lived until quite recently.

Drinking, singing and dancing are expected to take place deep in the mountains of Miaoli and Hsinchu when the "Ritual of the Little Black People" (矮靈祭) is performed by the Saisiyat tribe once again this weekend.

For the past 100 years or so, the Saisiyat tribe (賽夏族) has performed the songs and rites of the festival to bring good harvests, ward off bad luck and keep alive the spirit of a race of people who are said to have preceded all others in Taiwan.

In fact, the short, black men the festival celebrates are one of the most ancient types of modern humans on this planet and their kin still survive in Asia today. They are said to be diminutive Africoids and are variously called Pygmies, Negritos and Aeta. They are found in the Philippines, northern Malaysia, Thailand, Sumatra in Indonesia and other places.

Chinese historians called them "black dwarfs" in the Three Kingdoms period (AD 220 to AD 280) and they were still to be found in China during the Qing dynasty (1644 to 1911). In Taiwan they were called the "Little Black People" and, apart from being diminutive, they were also said to be broad-nosed and dark-skinned with curly hair

http://www.taipeitim...1/27/2003212815
One of the most eminent anthropologists K C Chang said that the Dawenkou culture,considered to be a precursor culture was largely African:K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76)

Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch’ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases

Here is much later craniometrics from the China National Knowledge Infrastructure project:

The fur-ther comparison of Neolithic Man with Modern Man in China (including inhabitants of Northern China, Fujian province and Hainan island) is made, also based on the main index values and total prognathism of skull, showing that the development of the physi-cal characteristics of Chinese is a genetic and successive course from Later Paleolithic Man to Modern Man via Neolithic Man. Thus, so-called negroid-Australoid racial traits, such as the narrow and long cranial pattern, heigh vaulted crania, lower orbit, wide nose and some projective prognathism (from the morphological observations), themsel-ves are intrinsic characteristics of Neolithic Man in China, only there is a little diffe-rentia in the degrees of display of these traits among groups.

http://en.cnki.com.c...XB198602001.htm
Also the late Neolithic Australoids practiced African customs still seen today.Skull binding and teeth ablation.

Their racial type is Mongoloid and just as in the case of Ta-w(?)n-k'ou bears a certain resemblance to the Polynesian cranium type.The latter is attri-buted to a sub-division of the Southern Mongoloid.The incidence of cranial deformation among the males of Hsia-hsia-hou is only fiftyper cent as against the nearly one hundred per cent of Ta-w(?)n-k'ou.The cranial defor-mation among the females is one hundred per cent at both sites.The pre-mortem loss ofthe lateral incisors at Hsi-hsia-hou is similar to Ta-w(?)n-k'ou and probably resulted froma ritual practice in initiation rites.The incidence of ablation of teeth at Hsi-hsia-hou isthirty three per cent among the males and sixty seven per cent among the females.

http://en.cnki.com.c...XB197302007.htm

The skulls from the Ye-dian neolithic site are closer to those of the Ta-wen-kou andShi-hsia-hou sites than to those of the other Chinese sites in non-metric and metricfeatures.The author believed that the inhabitants of the Ye-dian neolithic site belongedto the same racial type as those of the Ta-wen-kou and Shi-hsia-hou sites which hadbeen considered by Yen Yin as morphologically belonging to Polynesian type

http://en.cnki.com.c...ZD198001009.htm
This is modern African skull elongation as still practiced.

However,another study describes the Yangshao as "physically Chinese"

A careful study of the bones of 400 individuals removed from
more than 300 graves indicates that the Jiahu ethnic group may be
identi®ed with the North AsianMongolian group, and also with the
Xiawanggang and Miaodigou groups in Henan Province and the
Dawenkou, Yedian and Xixiahou groups that were later found in
Shandong Province. The range of male heights was from 170 to
180 cm. In the late Palaeolithic Zhoukoudian Cave, `unspecialized'
Mongoloids were described6. By the Yangshao period (3000 BC±
5000 BC)7, the skull measurements are `physically Chinese' and
`modern'6. The physical similarity of the Jiahu people to the later
Dawenkou (2600 BC±4300 BC) indicates that the Dawenkou might
have descended from the Jiahu, following a slow migration along the
middle and lower reaches of the Huai river and the Hanshui valley.

http://web.mac.com/k...e_Flutes_-.html
There are definite topological parallels with W.African and Chinese languages. The last group to be assimilated by the Han,the Qiang of N.Szechuan left extremely interesting traces of their original language which have persisted until now.
Their tonal type is African ,specifically Dagaare ,spoken in Ghana as far as Burkina Faso. The language is of the Niger-Congo family .

Contrastive levels of tone in some Niger-Congo languages H, L Dyula–Bambara, Maninka, Temne, Dogon, Dagbani, Gbaya, Efik, Lingala
H, M, L Yakuba, Nafaanra, Kasem, Banda, Yoruba, Jukun, Dangme, Yukuben, Akan, Anyi, Ewe, Igbo
T, H, M, L Gban, Wobe, Munzombo, Igede, Mambila, Fon
T, H, M, L, B Ashuku (Benue-Congo), Dan-Santa (Mande)
PA/S Mandinka (Senegambia), Fula, Wolof, Kimwani
none Swahili
Abbreviations used: T top, H high, M mid, L low, B bottom, PA/S pitch-accent or stress
Adapted from Williamson 1989:27

http://en.wikipedia....Congo_languages
Here's the study on African tonals used by Qiang:http://sinica.academia.edu/JonathanEvans/Papers/167301/African_tone_in_the_Sinosphere
In 10 out of 12 respects such as language floating tones,toneless syllable pitches,contour structure, default tone pattern etc it is more African than Asian.The Qiang are extremely important for their famous oracle bone script they say is from the Shang.

were skilled in making oracle bones

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Qiang_people
More on the Qiang, (Remai):

Although now a minor segment of the population, the Qiang is commonly believed to be a very old people whose history can be traced to the Shang dynasty (Gu 1980; Ren, Li, & Zhou 1984). It is also believed to be a once strong and populous group whose offspring can now be found among, besides the Qiang in northwestern Sichuan, the Han, the Tibetans, and many minorities in southwestern China (Ran, Li, and Zhou 1984).

http://ultra.ihp.sin...barbarbook4.htm
According to HKU Dagaare shares similar ideophones with Cantonese.

More than one lexical verb may be found in the same clause
Example - ‘I bought some water and drank it’
Cantonese
Ngo5 maai5 seoi2 jam2
1.SG buy.PERF water drink
Dagaare
N da la koO nyu
1.SG buy.PERF FOC water drink

slide 19
www0.hku.hk/linguist/staff/AnstedTalk0801.doc
Here are examples of Proto saharan script/Shang oracle bone and Harappan script.

The discovery of Intercultural style vessels from Susa (in Iran),Sumerian, Egyptian and Indus Valley sites suggest a shared ideological identity among these people (Kohl 1978).

http://bafsudralam.b...te-writing.html

Similar signs appear on Chinese, Harappan, South Indian Megalithic, Libyan and Cretan pottery (see figure 1). These signs were invented by the Proto-Saharans for purposes of communication

Some of the craniometric evidence is contrary or deliberately misinterpreted. I think the overwhelmimng weight supporting evidence supports the case for blacks in Neolithic and Paleolithic China. What say the CHFers???

[ghostexorcist]

We've had numerous threads on this subject already, some of which are now deleted. Here are two surviving ones:

* http://www.chinahist...ecs-and-africa/

* http://www.chinahist...chinese-theory/

The general consensus over the years has been the theory is bullocks.

Edited by ghostexorcist, 05 July 2011 - 03:38 PM.

[thekyuke]

We've had numerous threads on this subject already, some of which are now deleted. Here are two surviving ones:

* http://www.chinahist...ecs-and-africa/

* http://www.chinahist...chinese-theory/

The general consensus over the years has been the theory is bullocks.

Neither thread actually had any material worth discussion-IMHO. What do you make of my en.cnki sources, KC Chang et al who all openly state Dawenkou/Longshan/Shang had much Negroid/Australoid traits? What is your opinion on the HKU tonal parallels? What do you infer from the seemingly similar cultural toolkit-the script and skull binding?
Could it all possibly be coincidence? Maybe its misinterpretation?

[hljhljhlj]

Page not found?

[thekyuke]

Page not found?

I've just gone over all the links I supplied. They're all working. The HKU link is in PDF format.Which particular pages are unavailable?

[Tibet Libre]

Sounds like the mirror theory to Chinese in pre-Columbian America...

[Loong]

Don't know about the previous threads.

I believe that human from African continent may have migrated to the Chinese civilization, probably thrived.

However, to say that Chinese script and language is based on African is an insult. The script we use has no resemblence to those you refer to.

[thekyuke]

Don't know about the previous threads.

I believe that human from African continent may have migrated to the Chinese civilization, probably thrived.

However, to say that Chinese script and language is based on African is an insult. The script we use has no resemblence to those you refer to.

My Chinese is non-existant.However if Hong Kong University publishes a study identifying W.African and Chinese lamngaue parallels I can trust their academic reputation. How exactly is that an insult?

[Loong]

Unless someone proves to me Changjie is an african, I won't contemplate saying chinese is derived/related to west african language. Theat's where I feel insulted.

You can say both languages develop (independently) with similarities, but it aint a derivation from africans.

[thekyuke]

Unless someone proves to me Changjie is an african, I won't contemplate saying chinese is derived/related to west african language. Theat's where I feel insulted.

You can say both languages develop (independently) with similarities, but it aint a derivation from africans.

If am not wrong Chiangjie was mythical, the man who invented writing. I'd have preferred we stick to cited sources but no matter. All the supporting evidence presented allows us to logically infer that the Qiang tonals were an African import. Both KC Chang and http://en.cnki.com.c...XB198602001.htm have Africans in China from the Paleolithic. Remember the Qiang themselves say their unique tonals came from the Shang.
I've never heard of 2 such widely separated peoples developing such close morphological linguistic parallels-do you have an example or preferably a cited source of such an amazing coincidence?

[Rykard]

If am not wrong Chiangjie was mythical, the man who invented writing. I'd have preferred we stick to cited sources but no matter. All the supporting evidence presented allows us to logically infer that the Qiang tonals were an African import. Both KC Chang and http://en.cnki.com.c...XB198602001.htm have Africans in China from the Paleolithic. Remember the Qiang themselves say their unique tonals came from the Shang.
I've never heard of 2 such widely separated peoples developing such close morphological linguistic parallels-do you have an example or preferably a cited source of such an amazing coincidence?

Where does Qiang say their unique tonals came from Shang. Can you quote for me that part together with source? Shang already gone many years ago, so how did Qiang people know their tonals came from Shang.

Edited by Rykard, 22 July 2011 - 05:45 AM.

[ghostexorcist]

How far back can they trace Proto Saharan script? Most of the ancient cultures that I have looked into used a simplistic form of slashes to denote their language. For instance, the "Linear B" style of ancient Pre-Greek writing (13-17th cen. BCE) looks very similar to the Oracle bone script.

Edited by ghostexorcist, 23 July 2011 - 05:27 PM.

[thekyuke]

How far back can they trace Proto Saharan script? Most of the ancient cultures that I have looked into used a simplistic form of slashes to denote their language. For instance, the "Linear B" style of ancient Pre-Greek writing (13-17th cen. BCE) looks very similar to the Oracle bone script.

Yes,that's true as I showed in my post above. The pre-Greeks and neolithic Shang ,strange as it may seem were basically one and the same.

For example, Parker (1917,1918) used anthropological, archaeological, historical and classical sources to prove that blacks once lived in the Aegean. Parker (1917,1918) used the Greek classics to prove that the Pelasgians were of African origin. He also discussed the origin stories about the Pelasgic founders of selected Grecian cities and proved that these men were blacks and not Indo-Europeans. Parker (1917, pp.341-42) also observed that "the great Grecian epics are epics of an African people and Helen, the cause of the Trojan war, must henceforth be conceived as a beautiful brown skin girl" . These Africans sailed to the Greece from North Africa.

http://clyde.winters...m/chapter6.html

There is much more recent mt dna evidence supporting this idea.

[wilson]

I was researching a linguistic matter on another forum and stumbled across what seems unmistakable evidence of Africans in early China. The thread degenerated into flaming and irrelevancy-before joining I've been lurking long enough here to see that the intellectual standard here i too high for that to happen here.
My evidence is craniometric, scripts,cultural features and linguistic similarities. In fact it appears their survivors lived until quite recently.

http://www.taipeitim...1/27/2003212815
One of the most eminent anthropologists K C Chang said that the Dawenkou culture,considered to be a precursor culture was largely African:K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76)

Here is much later craniometrics from the China National Knowledge Infrastructure project:

http://en.cnki.com.c...XB198602001.htm
Also the late Neolithic Australoids practiced African customs still seen today.Skull binding and teeth ablation.

http://en.cnki.com.c...XB197302007.htm


http://en.cnki.com.c...ZD198001009.htm
This is modern African skull elongation as still practiced.

However,another study describes the Yangshao as "physically Chinese"

http://web.mac.com/k...e_Flutes_-.html
There are definite topological parallels with W.African and Chinese languages. The last group to be assimilated by the Han,the Qiang of N.Szechuan left extremely interesting traces of their original language which have persisted until now.
Their tonal type is African ,specifically Dagaare ,spoken in Ghana as far as Burkina Faso. The language is of the Niger-Congo family .

http://en.wikipedia....Congo_languages
Here's the study on African tonals used by Qiang:http://sinica.academia.edu/JonathanEvans/Papers/167301/African_tone_in_the_Sinosphere
In 10 out of 12 respects such as language floating tones,toneless syllable pitches,contour structure, default tone pattern etc it is more African than Asian.The Qiang are extremely important for their famous oracle bone script they say is from the Shang.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Qiang_people
More on the Qiang, (Remai):
http://ultra.ihp.sin...barbarbook4.htm
According to HKU Dagaare shares similar ideophones with Cantonese.

slide 19
www0.hku.hk/linguist/staff/AnstedTalk0801.doc
Here are examples of Proto saharan script/Shang oracle bone and Harappan script.





http://bafsudralam.b...te-writing.html


Some of the craniometric evidence is contrary or deliberately misinterpreted. I think the overwhelmimng weight supporting evidence supports the case for blacks in Neolithic and Paleolithic China. What say the CHFers???

Africa is considered the cradle of civilization while central asia is the nursery so to speak , that's the most popular consensus nowadays. I'm not completely opposed to the notion of Africans living in distinct locations within China , but as far as the comparisons in physical and cultural traits , the two ethnicities are probably distinguished more then any other two races

- cranial capacity of Africans are the smallest , while that of East Asians are the largest - even larger than Caucasoids despite the fact even with body sizes that are smaller

- Africans have the excessive body and facial hair with the hair being curly and thin , Asians exhibit the opposite spectrum with hair that is thick and straight

- Africans have the most notable protrusions in browridges while Asians have absent browridges

- Africans adults have thick skin while Asians retain the skin texture from birth

- Asians are a collective culture with emphasis in sexual restraint - strategy for reproduction consists of increased attentativeness to preserving the life of the first child due to relative decrease in reproductive birth potention due to harsh environments as well as less hormonal development for the females - while Africans mate with multiple partners to increase the odds of survival of their genes.

- Africans have long limbs and small torsos , Asians have short limbs and larger torsos

need I say more? btw , remains of small black people were found in Scotland , does that equate them with the Picts? Picts were probably more along the lines of the Basque people but the English have used such findings to claim that the Scots were Africanoid. Thereby justifying the enslavement of the Scots.

[thekyuke]

Africa is considered the cradle of civilization while central asia is the nursery so to speak , that's the most popular consensus nowadays. I'm not completely opposed to the notion of Africans living in distinct locations within China , but as far as the comparisons in physical and cultural traits , the two ethnicities are probably distinguished more then any other two races

- cranial capacity of Africans are the smallest , while that of East Asians are the largest - even larger than Caucasoids despite the fact even with body sizes that are smaller

- Africans have the excessive body and facial hair with the hair being curly and thin , Asians exhibit the opposite spectrum with hair that is thick and straight

- Africans have the most notable protrusions in browridges while Asians have absent browridges

- Africans adults have thick skin while Asians retain the skin texture from birth

- Asians are a collective culture with emphasis in sexual restraint - strategy for reproduction consists of increased attentativeness to preserving the life of the first child due to relative decrease in reproductive birth potention due to harsh environments as well as less hormonal development for the females - while Africans mate with multiple partners to increase the odds of survival of their genes.

- Africans have long limbs and small torsos , Asians have short limbs and larger torsos

need I say more? btw , remains of small black people were found in Scotland , does that equate them with the Picts? Picts were probably more along the lines of the Basque people but the English have used such findings to claim that the Scots were Africanoid. Thereby justifying the enslavement of the Scots.

Its impossible to respond to such subjective declarations. If you have any objections to any evidence presented please present it for discussion.eg you talk of brow ridges,cranial capacities,collective cultures,reproductive strategies etc. etc. overlooking cited sources on African craniometrics/language parallels/ancient scripts.
We can only have a logical discussion by confirming or disconfirming the truth of these findings.
Though I'd rather we continue the original thread here is common haplogroup of Med. Europeans and W./Africans:

The Benin Haplogroup or Haplogroup 19 Common in Africans, southern Greeks, Sicilians, and Albanians

There are at least four distinct African, (known as Senegal, Congo, Benin, Bantu Hbs Haplogroups) and one Asian chromosomal backgrounds (haplotypes) on which the sickle cell mutation has arisen.

The Benin haplotype (which originates from Nigeria, West Africa) accounts for HbS associated chromosomes in Sicily Northern Greece, Southern Turkey, and South West Saudi Arabia, suggesting that these genes had their origin in West Africa.

As I said that explains the similarity of proto-Saharan and linear b.