42 replies to this topic

[Belken]

They have all these books about how the Art of War can be applied to business.My first thought was "Ahem,you cannot apply assasin techniques found in the book".
I understand that some strategies can be reapplied for the business field like treating suboordinates well and reconaissance work and info but there are still a a lot that cannot be applied because it is,after all,called the Art of War.
Cause if the police found out that you hired someone to kill your business rival,you are in deep trouble.Execution of indisciplined suboordinates is a big no-no as well.You can't execute concubines who are laughing during training the way Sun Tzu did.Forcable takeover of someone's fortress(office)and raising your flag on the balcony is out of the question as well.
Unless of course you stay in one hell of a corrupt country and "know your enemy(the police)" loves money and can be bribed ,then any strategy involving someone's death is off limits.Forcable takeover of someone's fortress(office) is out of the question as well.


Any other strategies that can't be applied?I'm sure everyone else knows A LOT that cannot be used.

Edited by Belken, 07 July 2011 - 11:10 AM.

[Gan]

I think if you take the words literally, then most of Sun Tzu's work couldn't be applied to business matters. Most likely, business leaders see it as a form of allegory. Depending on how big and widespread the enterprise is, it can be very dirty "figuratively" like a battlefield.

Edited by Gan, 07 July 2011 - 12:53 PM.

[Gan]

Nowadays, with so much available information everywhere and technology connecting us, there are a lot of things that we can not get away with.

However, 20-30 or 40+ years ago, people literally were dying for their companies. Corruption and spies were everywhere. Sometimes, people were assassinated. The sad thing about that part was that it wasn't business leaders but business heirs. Large private family enterprises were much more common before,and they still wanted to keep it in the family. However, other shrewd or greedy businessmen who were not related to the family enterprises found ways to take it away. In a lot of cases, the heirs abruptly left when their time came, but in a few instances, the heirs were found dead in ways that suggested homicide but was listed as officially suicide. That's in the US, so I assume other countries had more or less the same thing.

Edited by Gan, 07 July 2011 - 01:03 PM.

[Loong]

yeah, instead of executing, there are other ways of doing.

I just sacked a few guys for questioning my authority. that in another term is "executing your concubine"

[Belken]

yeah, instead of executing, there are other ways of doing.

I just sacked a few guys for questioning my authority. that in another term is "executing your concubine"

Not the same.No death involved.They can always come back to beat you up.Sun Tzu's way,execute the suboordinate and he becomes a corpse.

[oldbreadstinks]

Not the same.No death involved.They can always come back to beat you up.Sun Tzu's way,execute the suboordinate and he becomes a corpse.

it works the same way,

the aim of executing the concubines wasn't because he wanted them dead, but rather to send a message clearly to the rest, who's in charge now and what's going to happen to you if you don't follow my orders.

Assuming that the subordinate is disobeying out of whim and not because the orders are wrong, it makes sense to sack the employee or demote him/her to send a clear message.

now where was it stated that executing the offenders is a must, only that the orders of the commanders must be clear. And flexible methods to be used according to the situation.

Looking at it that way, Sun Tzu executed the concubines in order to achieve maximium effect of his times.
By advocating that you need deaths for it to be the same while ignoring the current context,aren't you going against the basic ideas of how the art of war would work?

[oldbreadstinks]

But really, I really laughed when I first read the art of war. Can't recall the version but the ideas inside was so d**** loosely worded it can basically be applied to any situation as long as you're willing to adopt a flexible view of it.

It's full of disclaimers so if you find one chapter describing a situation that looks like suicide if you follow the book, just flip on to the next chapter. and right at the end it tells you to be flexible and judge according to the situation and not follow norms if the situation doesn't allow it.

So how can it be "wrong" when the Art of War itself says "anything goes"

[mariusj]

It's full of disclaimers so if you find one chapter describing a situation that looks like suicide if you follow the book, just flip on to the next chapter. and right at the end it tells you to be flexible and judge according to the situation and not follow norms if the situation doesn't allow it.

Which chapter?

Perhaps its only translation, perhaps its your own understanding.

[Loong]

I guess if you want to take it literally, then, yes, you can't kill anyone physically.

If you take all writing and loosely translate it (to suit one's need), then all major writing can be interpreted in a number of ways. Take the bible for instance.

I guess we'll agree that there are people that believe it cannot be applied to business, and that's that. There's no point in arguing when there are thousands of rich successful businessmen attribute their success to Sun Tzu (writing numerous books, talks etc), when one guy comes on a history forum with a title "Replying to Strategies of Sun Tzu that CANNOT be applied to business".

[Belken]

I guess if you want to take it literally, then, yes, you can't kill anyone physically.

If you take all writing and loosely translate it (to suit one's need), then all major writing can be interpreted in a number of ways. Take the bible for instance.

I guess we'll agree that there are people that believe it cannot be applied to business, and that's that. There's no point in arguing when there are thousands of rich successful businessmen attribute their success to Sun Tzu (writing numerous books, talks etc), when one guy comes on a history forum with a title "Replying to Strategies of Sun Tzu that CANNOT be applied to business".

The last sentence was meant as an insult and you are pretending to be civilized.
These thousands of your "rich businessmen" are just ants compared to the multitude of modern armies who adapted Sun Tzu's art of war without being restricted to business rules and restrictive etiqutte.One order from the authorities above and these smalltime citizen businessmen will get a bullet straight to the head.Now that is the real Art of War.

[Loong]

hahahaha, come on Belken, I ain't pretending. It was meant as an sarcastic comment.

My used the "business men" because the original thread was it cannot be applied to business. I'd use government, armies or anything else if the thread was phrased differently.

Anyway, I am supporting Sun Tzu, so, I shouldn't be shot by armies that are supporting Sun Tzu too.....

[Belken]

hahahaha, come on Belken, I ain't pretending. It was meant as an sarcastic comment.

Whatever.It was meant for insulting purposes.I can see

My used the "business men" because the original thread was it cannot be applied to business. I'd use government, armies or anything else if the thread was phrased differently.

Remember what is the title.Strategies of Sun Tzu that CANNOT be applied to business.I didn't type All Sun Tzu's strategies cannot be used for business

Anyway, I am supporting Sun Tzu, so, I shouldn't be shot by armies that are supporting Sun Tzu too.....

No 2 countries who are at war is going to give in to the other just because both pratice strategies of the same person.

[Loong]

alright. peace offering.

[Hannibal27]

Gan's first post hit the mark regarding the allegory connection between business and war. Complexity science has found universality among complex systems. Like all social systems, war and business are complex adaptive systems. A characteristic of complexity is the existence of decision making agents, which compete on one level or another for limited resources. War and business share a conscious competitive nature characterized by opposing collectives, whether bilaterally or multilaterally, competing for a limited resources - in war this could be territory - in business it may be a client. An approach to war can be creatively and pragmatically adapted to business for this reason. For the same reason, we can take lessons from other systems as well - a particular favorite area of systems for me is evolutionary biology.

So, there is no part of Sunzi's stratagems and overall approach to strategy that can't be creatively adapted and applied to business.

[Belken]

alright. peace offering.

Ok.I was being overdefensive now that I think of it.