14 replies to this topic

[gus]

I'm watching the new Three Kingdom drama series (I've never read the book though) and it shows that Xun Yu is Cao Cao's best adviser all along, but when he becomes old, he does not support Cao Cao's decision of becoming a Prince (I don't know if that is the right word in English for Wei Wang), and all of a sudden, Cao Cao forces Xun Yu to kill himself.
Anyone know why that happens? Did I miss something?

[Ma Su]

I'm watching the new Three Kingdom drama series (I've never read the book though) and it shows that Xun Yu is Cao Cao's best adviser all along, but when he becomes old, he does not support Cao Cao's decision of becoming a Prince (I don't know if that is the right word in English for Wei Wang), and all of a sudden, Cao Cao forces Xun Yu to kill himself.
Anyone know why that happens? Did I miss something?

Cao Cao was an ageing warlord who was trying to secure his son Pi's succession after his death. His becoming King was a controversial step that helped strengthen the Cao grip on power and was the breaking point for Han loyalist Xun Yu. The Han wasn't an issue where there was a series of clashes between adviser and warlord so there wasn't much build up in that respect, this was more an issue where Xun Yu picked loyalty to the Han over loyalty to Cao Cao. As for why Cao Cao forced his death on the issue, the last thing Pi would need during the uncertainty on Cao Cao's death is the influential and intelligent Xun Yu opposing Pi.

[sima old bandit]

It was the same when Jiang Wan opposed Liu Bei's accension to Emperor. Liu Bei didn't kill him but relieved him of office when ZL intervened. Gone was that humility he showed when he was a wandering and homeless vagrant.

Lesson: don't stand in the way of your lords ambition.

Edited by sima old bandit, 18 July 2011 - 11:57 AM.

[gus]

Cao Cao didn't get rid of Sima Yi though, he should have done that, that guy is obnoxious.

[Shaolin]

but when he becomes old, he does not support Cao Cao's decision of becoming a Prince (I don't know if that is the right word in English for Wei Wang)

"Wei Wang" (魏王)is translated as "King of Wei" during the Eastern Han Dynasty.

However I think it was the awarding the title of "Wei Gong" (魏公), "Duke of Wei" to Cao Cao 3 years earlier that created the objection of Xun Yu.

Cao Cao forces Xun Yu to kill himself.

This is one of the version of how he died. The other version is he died of illness while in battle with Sun Quan forces.

[SlickSlicer]

Cao Cao didn't get rid of Sima Yi though, he should have done that, that guy is obnoxious.

Sima Yi was hardly in a position of power during Cao Cao's reign. He rose in stature under subsequent Emperors much later. By the time he had effectively seized the reins of government, the ruling Cao Emperors were very weak anyways. If he hadn't become the big cheese at court, somebody else would have (as it was he was effectively competing with Cao Shuang, the son of the Wei general Cao Zhen, iirc).

As for this question, I was under the impression that it was unclear exactly how Xun Yu died. It isn't unreasonable to believe that Cao Cao killed him though. Protesting the ascension of your ruler's rank was not a very good idea at this time period. Kong Rong lost his life for more or less the same thing (though Kong Rong was much more obnoxious than Xun Yu admittedly).

Edited by SlickSlicer, 23 July 2011 - 08:58 AM.

[shanessy]

Xun Yu served Cao Cao because Cao Cao is the Prime Minister of Han. Xun Yu's loyalty is with the Han Emperor and when Cao Cao claim to be a King, Xun Yu oppose it and hence his relationship with Cao Cao has been strained.

 

Thats to my understanding of the situation.

[Korin]

http://kongming.net/...l/sgz/xunyu.php

 

What does die of grief mean??

[Ma Su]

http://kongming.net/...l/sgz/xunyu.php
 
What does die of grief mean??

Well sometimes it was a historians phrase for covering up/hinting at a suicide. As seems likely in this case.

It can also mean that a depressed figure died and the Chinese assumed the depression/strong grief was the reason for the death.

[Korin]

So Xun Yu pretty much suicided. But was it intentional? or was he forced to commit? Or did he die of illness instead?

[Ma Su]

Intentional suicide. Whether he was forced to commit suicide is a bit of a grey area but he was likely under pressure to take his life and his family would benefit.

[longbaby]

A Chinese scholar listed Xun Yu and Zhuge Liang as the only two people who have ideals in the chaotic Three Kingdom period, which is exactly preserving the regime of the Liu clan.

[Ma Su]

What about men like Liu Yu and Chen Rong? Plenty of principled figures in the era, they just aren't as famous.

[willywazza]

Xun You was loyal to the Han Dynasty and served Cao Cao because he was the Prime Minister. However, Cao Cao wanted his successor to overthrow the Han Dynasty so made moves to place the Cao clan in that position. Xun You did not approve and this must have angered Cao Cao because Xun You whilst loyal to the Han, had still served beneath him for years.

[Korin]

You mean Xun Yu right? - Also I think Yu was forced to commit suicide because he heavily disagreed with Cao successor taking over the Han Dynasty which became Wei Kingdom.